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PostSubject: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:55 am

10-01-2008, 12:52 AM
So i hear its somewhere in the levant, been hearing that for years actually.

My question is, did the Arabs migrate to Arabia (saudi arabia) after, and expand in arabia from the levant?

I believe that Ishmal (pbuh) gave birth to the Arabic nation, Ishmail (pbuh) was from the levant like his father Abraham (pbuh), so therefore it makes sense to me.
Lebanese
10-01-2008, 01:31 AM
So i hear its somewhere in the levant, been hearing that for years actually.

My question is, did the Arabs migrate to Arabia (saudi arabia) after, and expand in arabia from the levant?

I believe that Ishmal (pbuh) gave birth to the Arabic nation, Ishmail (pbuh) was from the levant like his father Abraham (pbuh), so therefore it makes sense to me.

i heard this story 2 but then i say why the Levant phenotypes differ from the arab pensuela phenotypes, maybe its because of mixing
Trueshot
10-01-2008, 02:05 AM
Yea kinda, they originated in mesopotamia, well at least the J1 haplogroup did Wink
Ethioboy
10-01-2008, 03:35 AM
heres the story... african immigrants arrive from horn of africa into arabia... migrate north.. remaining ones settle in arabia, become arab aborigionals.... which are darker skinned, but still caucasoid.. in levant J1 comes into existence, or the arab marker.... later.. the carriers of J1 and J2 spread back south and west... populating the arab peninsula and some went into s. europe, N. Africa, and the horn of africa.. the carriers of J1 in arabia are the arabs so yes it was through a back migration from the levant.
Compass
10-01-2008, 03:33 PM
There are good tips in the J1 Arab project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject&fixed_columns=on
Redstick
10-01-2008, 04:41 PM
heres the story... african immigrants arrive from horn of africa into arabia... migrate north.. remaining ones settle in arabia, become arab aborigionals.... which are darker skinned, but still caucasoid.. in levant J1 comes into existence, or the arab marker.... later.. the carriers of J1 and J2 spread back south and west... populating the arab peninsula and some went into s. europe, N. Africa, and the horn of africa.. the carriers of J1 in arabia are the arabs so yes it was through a back migration from the levant.

What evidence shows Arab originally came from Horn of Africa apart from the theory of Semitic language homeland located in Ethiopia? Note E3b(East African genetic marker) only constitutes roughly 15 to 20 % of an average Arabian Arab gene while 65% to 70% of an average Ethiopian.
prmix
10-01-2008, 04:56 PM
i heard this story 2 but then i say why the Levant phenotypes differ from the arab pensuela phenotypes, maybe its because of mixingYes, Arabs intermarried nons on ancient times, and the Bible can tell you many examples of it.
EliasAlucard
10-01-2008, 06:54 PM
heres the story... african immigrants arrive from horn of africa into arabia... migrate north.. remaining ones settle in arabia, become arab aborigionals.... which are darker skinned, but still caucasoid.. in levant J1 comes into existence, or the arab marker.... later.. the carriers of J1 and J2 spread back south and west... populating the arab peninsula and some went into s. europe, N. Africa, and the horn of africa.. the carriers of J1 in arabia are the arabs so yes it was through a back migration from the levant.I have an alternative theory:

The Caucasoid race originated somewhere in the world (perhaps somewhere in the Caucasus region, but not necessarily Caucasus) through genetic isolation (this in accordance with Dr. Neil Risch) and later on spread throughout the world (mostly Europe, Middle East, north Africa and India). In the case of the Arabian peninsula, Caucasoid gene pool entered there a long time ago, and some major gene replacement occurred, but not language replacement (leaving the Afro-Asiatic, Semitic language intact).

Oh and, we have to be precise here: the demographics of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, are not genetic Arabs in the same way as the Arabs in the Arabian peninsula; Mesopotamians and Levantines are Arabized linguistically (language replacement, but not gene replacement).

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3974/cavallisforza4151fj0.th.png (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4151fj0.png) http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3373/cavallisforza4101fq6.th.png (http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4101fq6.png)

The genetic distance between Bedouins/Saudis/Yemenites is quite large compared with the rest of the genetic cluster (Mesopotamians and Levantines) of Arabized populations.

As for Y-DNA J, which is usually associated with Semitic peoples; it doesn't really mean much in the larger picture. Y-DNA J is very likely older than the Semitic languages, and probably just a surviving remnant of proto-Afro-Asiatic peoples who lived there before gene replacing Caucasoid migration entered the area.

Here's an excerpt that might give us an understanding of the north African "Arabs" (Berbers) and their gene pool:

Two members of the Afro-Asiatic language family correspond to different major branches of the genetic tree: East Africans (mostly Ethiopians), who are genetically African, and Berbers, North Africans who are genetically Caucasoid. Ethiopians are to various degrees mixtures of African and Caucasoid gene pools, with an African preponderance (on the average) so that they join Africans in the genetic tree. Most Ethiopians speak languages of Cushitic, a major branch of the Afro-Asiatic, some speak Nilo-Saharan languages, but relatively recent and known historical events contributed to the spread to northern Ethiopia of south Arabian languages (the Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family). Clearly there was in Ethiopia substantial gene replacement, which may be quite different in different places, and, at least in some cases, there was also language replacement (see chap. 3).
— Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 100 (http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:0691087504&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA100,M1)

Very likely, something similar occurred in the Arabian peninsula (either language replacement or gene replacement), but I'd like some more sources corroborating this before I make up my mind on this alternative theory.
sala12
10-01-2008, 07:06 PM
What evidence shows Arab originally came from Horn of Africa apart from the theory of Semitic language homeland located in Ethiopia? Note E3b(East African genetic marker) only constitutes roughly 15 to 20 % of an average Arabian Arab gene while 65% to 70% of an average Ethiopian.

He is talking about the first humans who left the horn into the middle east
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:56 am

saber
10-01-2008, 07:48 PM
that's strange, in one of those genetic trees, Jordanians are shown to be related to Assyrians, but in the other one they are shown to be closer to Turks. I wonder if the Assyrians are related to native Jordanians or to the Palestinian majority in Jordan?
Ethioboy
10-01-2008, 08:32 PM
What evidence shows Arab originally came from Horn of Africa apart from the theory of Semitic language homeland located in Ethiopia? Note E3b(East African genetic marker) only constitutes roughly 15 to 20 % of an average Arabian Arab gene while 65% to 70% of an average Ethiopian.

they didnt... out of africa theory? they migrated from horn to yemen.... went north.. aborigional arabs developed in south.. "arabs" as we know them today develope J1 marker in north.. come down and re populate arabia... thats what i meant.. didnt u read my post...
EliasAlucard
10-01-2008, 08:34 PM
that's strange, in one of those genetic trees, Jordanians are shown to be related to Assyrians, but in the other one they are shown to be closer to Turks. I wonder if the Assyrians are related to native Jordanians or to the Palestinian majority in Jordan?It's because Jordanians and "Turks" aren't actually Arabs or "Turks"; they've acquired the Turkish language through what C. Renfrew calls "elite dominance" and what Cavalli-Sforza calls "demic diffusion". Most Turks in the Middle East are racially Caucasoids, and Turkified (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkification) Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Anatolians, and so on. There exists some Mongoloids in Turkey, but they're a minority.

So, if you want to understand the origin of Arabs, you have to set aside the Arabized non-Arabs in Mesopotamia and the Levant (who only speak Arabic, but aren't real Arabs) as well as the other pseudo-Arabs in north Africa (Berbers, Egypts, etc.).

Basically, only the real Arabs in the Arabian peninsula count.

Here's some more of what Cavalli-Sforza wrote (forgot to add this):

Some cases of language replacement are historically documentated; for instance, Latin spread to western Europe and other countries under Roman rule, and foreign invaders imposed their languages in Hungary and in Turkey during the Middle Ages. In certain situations language replacement was a massive phenomenon, as shown by the spread of European languages to the Americas or Australia in modern times, or of Arabic to North Africa in the Middle Ages. The original languages may then appear only as relics in isolated places. This is believed to be the case for Basque, the only pre-Indo-European language surviving in Europe after the spread of Indo-European languages (see chap. 5). Similarly, the Dravidian family (see chap. 4) is mostly confined to southern India and a few more-northern places but was probably much more widespread in the past; in this case, the diffusion of Indo-European languages was also the cause of the partial disappearance of the languages of the earlier settlers. The processes leading to language replacement are described in some more detail later (sec. 2.6.d).
— Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, pp. 99-100 (http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:0691087504&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA100,M1)

And it's the same with "Arabs" in Mesopotamia and the Levant. So, in order to understand the origin of Arabs, you have to cut off the Arabized peoples (what I personally call pseudo-Arabs), because they have their own origins and aren't that closely related with the real Arabs. Not even haplotype-wise:

Table 1 shows the haplogroup frequencies obtained
by screening all Iraqi mtDNAs for the diagnostic RFLP
markers. Their distribution is similar to that of Iran and,
in general, to the Middle Eastern populations whereas it
substantially differs from that observed in Arabia.

Haplogroups
HV, H, V, J, T, K, U, I, X, and W encompass
about 78% of the Iraqi subjects. This overall frequency
is in the range of the other Middle Eastern population
values (75.1–80.4%) which are closer to Europe (>90%)
than to the Arabian peninsula (60.4%).
http://www.oxfordancestors.com/papers/mtDNA03%20PolymorphismsInIraq.pdf

A year ago or something like that, I used to think that Muslims in Iraq, Lebanon and elsewhere, were Arabs. But I've changed my mind about that after reading some of what Cavalli-Sforza has written on the subject.
Ethioboy
10-01-2008, 08:36 PM
I have an alternative theory:

The Caucasoid race originated somewhere in the world (perhaps somewhere in the Caucasus region, but not necessarily Caucasus) through genetic isolation (this in accordance with Dr. Neil Risch) and later on spread throughout the world (mostly Europe, Middle East, north Africa and India). In the case of the Arabian peninsula, Caucasoid gene pool entered there a long time ago, and some major gene replacement occurred, but not language replacement (leaving the Afro-Asiatic, Semitic language intact).

Oh and, we have to be precise here: the demographics of Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan, are not genetic Arabs in the same way as the Arabs in the Arabian peninsula; Mesopotamians and Levantines are Arabized linguistically (language replacement, but not gene replacement).

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3974/cavallisforza4151fj0.th.png (http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4151fj0.png) http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3373/cavallisforza4101fq6.th.png (http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4101fq6.png)

The genetic distance between Bedouins/Saudis/Yemenites is quite large compared with the rest of the genetic cluster (Mesopotamians and Levantines) of Arabized populations.

As for Y-DNA J, which is usually associated with Semitic peoples; it doesn't really mean much in the larger picture. Y-DNA J is very likely older than the Semitic languages, and probably just a surviving remnant of proto-Afro-Asiatic peoples who lived there before gene replacing Caucasoid migration entered the area.

Here's an excerpt that might give us an understanding of the north African "Arabs" (Berbers) and their gene pool:

Two members of the Afro-Asiatic language family correspond to different major branches of the genetic tree: East Africans (mostly Ethiopians), who are genetically African, and Berbers, North Africans who are genetically Caucasoid. Ethiopians are to various degrees mixtures of African and Caucasoid gene pools, with an African preponderance (on the average) so that they join Africans in the genetic tree. Most Ethiopians speak languages of Cushitic, a major branch of the Afro-Asiatic, some speak Nilo-Saharan languages, but relatively recent and known historical events contributed to the spread to northern Ethiopia of south Arabian languages (the Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family). Clearly there was in Ethiopia substantial gene replacement, which may be quite different in different places, and, at least in some cases, there was also language replacement (see chap. 3).
— Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 100 (http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:0691087504&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA100,M1)

Very likely, something similar occurred in the Arabian peninsula (either language replacement or gene replacement), but I'd like some more sources corroborating this before I make up my mind on this alternative theory.
but how does that account for aborigional arabs (not to mention the amount of mixing we are talking about here... if the theory were to be true).. btw J1 is the "arab marker" shared between the arabian people.. at least that is what i have learned..
saber
10-01-2008, 08:53 PM
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:57 am

EliasAlucard, I understand all that. I was looking at both those charts and noticed that in one of them, Modern day population of Jordan is genetically close to modern day Assyrians, but in the other one Jordanians are shown to be closer to the modern day population of Turkey...why the difference between the two charts. I was also wondering if the study distinguishes between native Jordanians, who I believe are mostly of Bedouin descent and the Palestinians residing in Jordan (50-55% of population)...and if the Assyrians are more related to the former or latter?
EliasAlucard
10-01-2008, 09:17 PM
but how does that account for aborigional arabs (not to mention the amount of mixing we are talking about here... if the theory were to be true).. btw J1 is the "arab marker" shared between the arabian people.. at least that is what i have learned..I wouldn't call Y-DNA J1 "arab marker" (partially because I'm no supporter of Arab supremacy over all Middle Eastern peoples). Jews also have a lot of J1 and Y-DNA J is common in the Caucasus as well as Europe. That said, I don't think it's right to grant Arabs some sort of genetic monopoly on Y-DNA J1:

http://www.le.ac.uk/ge/maj4/EuropeMap+Tree.jpg

Below is an image showing the geneitc distance between Jews (Ash, Rom and EtJ; Ethiopian Jews are not real genetic Jews, they're mostly converts to Judaism) and mostly pseudo-Arabs with some real Arabs (Yemenites):

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/pq1001159002.gif

If all Arabic speaking peoples outside of the Arabian peninsula were Arabs, their genetic distance would be a lot closer to Yemenites.Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago.

...

Among major contributors to the ancestral Arab-Jewish population were men who carried what Dr. Hammer calls the "Med" lineage. This Y chromosome is found all round the Mediterranean and in Europe and may have been spread by the Neolithic inventors of agriculture or perhaps by the voyages of sea-going people like the Phoenicians.

Another lineage common in the ancestral Arab-Jewish gene pool is found among today's Ethiopians and may have reached the Middle East by men who traveled down the Nile. But present-day Ethiopian Jews lack some of the other lineages found in Jewish communities, and overall are more like non-Jewish Ethiopians than other Jewish populations, at least in terms of their Y chromosome lineage pattern.

The ancestral pattern of lineages is recognizable in today's Arab and Jewish populations, but is distinct from that of European populations and both groups differ widely from sub-Saharan Africans.Source: http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346genetics.html

Also, Y-DNA Aaron is a subset of J1:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

So I don't know how that makes J1 an "Arab marker". I would guess that J1 existed amongst the mostly Arabized peoples long before they picked up the Arabic language.EliasAlucard, I understand all that. I was looking at both those charts and noticed that in one of them, Modern day population of Jordan is genetically close to modern day Assyrians, but in the other one Jordanians are shown to be closer to the modern day population of Turkey...why the difference between the two charts. I was also wondering if the study distinguishes between native Jordanians, who I believe are mostly of Bedouin descent and the Palestinians residing in Jordan (50-55% of population)...and if the Assyrians are more related to the former or latter?Good questions. Well, both genetic trees are from the same author (Cavalli-Sforza et al.) but since the first picture has less ethnic groups, I guess the order changes somewhat (the other genetic tree covers more populations). Still, Assyrians and Jordanians are genetically close in both genetic trees. Now, Assyrians used to speak Akkadian originally (an East Semitic language), but, during the neo-Assyrian empire, unfortunately, there was, due to demic diffusion (the Assyrians deported Aramaeans) a language replacement from Akkadian to Aramaic. Assyrians still speak an Aramaic language today (with some Akkadian vocabulary influence), but Jordanians nowadays speak Arabic. It's quite possible that Jordanians do have Assyrian ancestors way back when, or some related Semitic people from the past. After all, the Assyrian empire did extend into the borders of modern Jordan.

From discussions with a guy on another forum, his take on it was that in Transjordan, there's a genetic meeting point between real Arabs (mostly Bedouin) and linguistically Arabized non-Arabs (Jordanians). He based his conclusions on the studies of Carlos Flores et al. 2005... I haven't verified what he's saying, but if you want to check it up yourself:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/09/jordanian-y-chromosomes.html

This one might also be of help:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/5721/cavallisforza4102yw1.th.png (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4102yw1.png)
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:58 am

Ethioboy
10-01-2008, 09:47 PM
^
Haplogroup J1 is most frequent in the Arabian Peninsula (Yemen 85% [1] , Hadramawt - Yemen 72%, Qatar 58% (Cadenas et al. 2008)) and Dagestan (Dargins 91%, Avars 67%, Chamalins 67%, Lezgins 58%, Tabassarans 49%, Andis 37%, Bagvalins 21% (Yunusbaev et al. 2006)).

J1 is generally frequent amongst Arabs of the southern Levant, i.e. Palestinian Arabs (38.4%) (Semino et al.) and Arab Bedouins (62% and 82% in Negev desert Bedouins). It is also very common among other Arabic-speaking populations, such as those of Algeria (35%), Syria (30%), Iraq (33%), the Sinai Peninsula, and the Arabian Peninsula. The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic countries with mainly non-Arabic countries, such as Turkey and Iran, yet it is found at low frequency among the populations of those countries, as well as in Cyprus, Sicily and the Iberian Peninsula. It entered Ethiopia in the Neolithic with the Neolithic Revolution and spread of agriculture, where it is found mainly among Semitic speakers 11% Eritrea & 9 % Ethiopia (Amhara 33.3%). It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 30.1%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004). Researchers believe that marker DYS388=17 (Y DNA tests for STR - Short Tandem Repeater) is linked with the later expansion of Arabian tribes in the southern Levant and northern Africa (Di Giacomo et al. 2004).

Haplogroup J1 is found almost exclusively among modern populations of the Southwest Asia, North Africa, and the Horn of Africa, essentially delineating the region popularly known as the Middle East and associated with speakers of Semitic languages and Northeast Caucasian languages. The distribution of J1 outside of the Middle East may be associated with Arabs and Phoenicians who traded and conquered in Sicily, southern Italy, Spain, Azerbaijan, Turkey, and Pakistan, or with Jews, who have historical origins in the Middle East and speak (or historically spoke) a Semitic language, though typically Haplogroup J2 is more than twice as common among Jews. In Jewish populations overall, J1 constitutes 19.0% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004)(Behar et al. 2004). Haplogroup J1 with marker DYS388=13 is a distinctive type found in eastern Anatolia (Cinnioglu et al. 2004).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)
Quilon
10-01-2008, 11:27 PM
I have an alternative theory:

The Caucasoid race originated somewhere in the world (perhaps somewhere in the Caucasus region, but not necessarily Caucasus) through genetic isolation (this in accordance with Dr. Neil Risch) and later on spread throughout the world (mostly Europe, Middle East, north Africa and India).

A genetic bottleneck for Caucasoids makes sense, since majority of Caucasoid male lines are ether descendants of Y-chromosomal F and R1. And majority of female line from mtdna Haplogroup R(or N).

But the reason why Indians can't be viewed as an average Caucasoids, is because they aren't all descendants of the founder-effect population like Europeans, Middle East and north Africans are. Ancient Paleolithic Indians evolved in a different direction from early Caucasians. At most we can only say that North-West-Indians are mostly Caucasoids(genetically speaking), but other-types of indians are mainly an intermediate population at best.

As for Y-DNA J, which is usually associated with Semitic peoples; it doesn't really mean much in the larger picture. Y-DNA J is very likely older than the Semitic languages, and probably just a surviving remnant of proto-Afro-Asiatic peoples who lived there before gene replacing Caucasoid migration entered the area.

No doubt that both J1 & J2 originated in northern middle-east first. But while J2 stayed behind, some of the early J1 carriers went on to colonize Arabia. Therefore majority of the ancestry of Arabian peoples can be traced back towards the north.

But what people forget is J1s still very much present in the north, meaning it didn't completely disappear into arabia(because its even found in good number in both Persia and the Caucasus regions). Which is why its dumb when some people say all J1 in northern middle-east is only coming from the later invading Muslim Arabs. The reality is J1 has just as much high frequency outside of Arabia also, even majority of north-african J1 seem to be native berber(not arab).

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5671/12302103tm7.jpg
EliasAlucard
10-02-2008, 12:17 AM
A genetic bottleneck for Caucasoids makes sense, since majority of Caucasoid male lines are ether descendants of Y-chromosomal F and R1. And majority of female line from mtdna Haplogroup R(or N).Yeah.But the reason why Indians can't be viewed as an average Caucasoids, is because they aren't all descendants of the founder-effect population like Europeans, Middle East and north Africans are. Ancient Paleolithic Indians evolved in a different direction from early Caucasians. At most we can only say that North-West-Indians are mostly Caucasoids(genetically speaking), but other-types of indians are mainly an intermediate population at best.I agree with you about India. There's obviously a strong Caucasoid element in India, but it's, like you say, not Caucasoid to the same extent as in Western Eurasia (some Australoid admixture exists in Indians).

Looking at the genetic distance, there exists a gap between Indians and Europeans+NearEasterns:

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5051/cavallisforzageneclustefl4.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforzageneclustefl4.jpg)http://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Although, Indians arguably place themselves in the Caucasoid gene pool.

Here's a map of India's racial elements (I think it's from Dienekes, not sure):

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5783/indiatz1.th.gif (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indiatz1.gif)http://img216.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

And this article might tell you something:

Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India's caste system: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/05_01/Indo-European.shtmlNo doubt that both J1 & J2 originated in northern middle-east first. But while J2 stayed behind, some of the early J1 carriers went on to colonize Arabia. Therefore majority of the ancestry of Arabian peoples can be traced back towards the north.Agreed.But what people forget is J1s still very much present in the north, meaning it didn't completely disappear into arabia(because its even found in good number in both Persia and the Caucasus regions). Which is why its dumb when some people say all J1 in northern middle-east is only coming from the later invading Muslim Arabs. The reality is J1 has just as much high frequency outside of Arabia also, even majority of north-african J1 seem to be native berber(not arab).Well put. This Arab thing isn't just about Y-DNA J1 however. Due to the spread of the Arabic language, today, everything from the Middle East is associated with Arabs (and very often, it's inaccurate associations with Arabs). I guess people have a tendency to exaggerate Arabic influence outside of the Arabian peninsula.

What I'm personally curious about, is why there's such a genetic gap between real Arabs and the rest of the Middle East. My best guess is that while the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula originated from early Caucasoids, they've been relatively genetically isolated for quite some time in the peninsula. For instance, the following empires, did not conquer the Arabian peninsula:

The Sumerians, the Akkadians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians (technically all three the same Eastern Semitic peoples), the Persians (the Sassanids did conquer some parts of the Arabian peninsula, but left most of it intact; probably not much genetic admixture here), the Greeks, the Romans, and so on. While the Ottoman empire did (just like the Sassanids) conquer some parts of the Arabian peninsula, they left most of it untouched:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/OttomanEmpireIn1683.png

The same with the Sassanid empire:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Sassanid_empire_map.PNG

So, that's my best guess as to why the Arabians differ radically from the rest of the Middle East. While they did spread their language through the influence of the Quran, they did not replace the genes of north Africa and the Near East, and no big empire ever cared about conquering Saudi Arabia (probably because desert land wasn't that attractive), and this resulted in little to no genetic admixture.
saber
10-02-2008, 12:33 AM
A total of 120 mtDNA Saudi Arab lineages were analyzed for HVSI/II sequences and for haplogroup confirmatory coding diagnostic positions. A phylogeny of the most abundant haplogroup (preHV)1 (R0a) was constructed based on 13 whole mtDNA genomes. The Saudi Arabian group showed greatest similarity to other Arabian Peninsula populations (Bedouin from the Negev desert and Yemeni) and to Levantine populations. Nearly all the main western Asia haplogroups were detected in the Saudi sample, including the rare U9 clade. Saudi Arabs had only a minority sub-Saharan Africa component (7%), similar to the specific North-African contribution (5%). In addition, a small Indian influence (3%) was also detected...http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1810519
Quilon
10-02-2008, 12:35 AM
heres the story... african immigrants arrive from horn of africa into arabia... migrate north...

The early african immigrants couldn't migrate northwards because the Ice-age period created major Desertification of the ancient middle-east. Ofcourse there would be some small pockets of green in the extreme northern middle-east, but early immigrants couldn't get there because Saudi, Iranian, and Saharan Deserts where all blocking the way(and Deserts were larger in there size than today). So the Early African immigrants could only go east-wards towards India for the time-being. Later when the climate got better, immigrants from India finally got westwards towards Middle-east.

remaining ones settle in arabia, become arab aborigionals.... which are darker skinned, but still caucasoid...
I wouldn't call the aboriginal populations of southern-arabia caucasoids, most likely they were more closely connected to the East-african populations. Meaning they are more similar to Hone-africans and not related to any Caucasoid group. The Mahra people maybe the last surviving vestige of these ancient peoples. And these aboriginal southern-arabians may even be the people who later introduced E1b1b into middle-east.

in levant J1 comes into existence, or the arab marker.... later.. the carriers of J1 and J2 spread back south and west... populating the arab peninsula and some went into s. europe, N. Africa, and the horn of africa...
I don't think levant is where J1 comes into existence, for me its mostly likely in Iran/Iraq where both J1 and J2 originated. IMO, Iran may even be the place where Caucasoid types originated from, and then spread out in all different direction. Majority of Haplotypes found in many Caucasoid groups, all seem to be represented in Iran, logically this might just be the home of ancient Caucasoid types.
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 am

EliasAlucard
10-02-2008, 12:40 AM
A total of 120 mtDNA Saudi Arab lineages were analyzed for HVSI/II sequences and for haplogroup confirmatory coding diagnostic positions. A phylogeny of the most abundant haplogroup (preHV)1 (R0a) was constructed based on 13 whole mtDNA genomes. The Saudi Arabian group showed greatest similarity to other Arabian Peninsula populations (Bedouin from the Negev desert and Yemeni) and to Levantine populations. Nearly all the main western Asia haplogroups were detected in the Saudi sample, including the rare U9 clade. Saudi Arabs had only a minority sub-Saharan Africa component (7%), similar to the specific North-African contribution (5%). In addition, a small Indian influence (3%) was also detected...http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1810519This might be of use here:

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7946/structuresciencefy4.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=structuresciencefy4.jpg)http://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Taken from:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/02/huge-paper-on-human-genetic.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/06/admixture-estimate-vs-population-of.html
EliasAlucard
10-02-2008, 12:47 AM
The early african immigrants couldn't migrate northwards because the Ice-age period created major Desertification of the ancient middle-east. Ofcourse there would be some small pockets of green in the extreme northern middle-east, but early immigrants couldn't get there because Saudi, Iranian, and Saharan Deserts where all blocking the way(and Deserts were larger in there size than today). So the Early African immigrants could only go east-wards towards India for the time-being. Later when the climate got better, immigrants from India finally got westwards towards Middle-east.Interestingly, when looking at Cavalli-Sforza's gene cluster of West Asia, Middle Eastern peoples are closer to Indians than they are to Arabians.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3373/cavallisforza4101fq6.th.png (http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cavallisforza4101fq6.png)I wouldn't call the aboriginal populations of southern-arabia caucasoids, most likely they were more closely connected to the East-african populations. Meaning they are more similar to Hone-africans and not related to any Caucasoid group. The Mahra people maybe the last surviving vestige of these ancient peoples. And these aboriginal southern-arabians may even be the people who later introduced E1b1b into middle-east.Mahra... could it be the Mehri language you're talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehri_language

This is interesting. It very well could be the case that Caucasoids entered the area and that there was some major gene replacement, but no language replacement. Meaning, Caucasoids adopted Semitic languages (which later evolved into Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew, etcetera).I don't think levant is where J1 comes into existence, for me its mostly likely in Iran/Iraq where both J1 and J2 originated. IMO, Iran may even be the place where Caucasoid types originated from, and then spread out in all different direction. Majority of Haplotypes found in many Caucasoid groups, all seem to be represented in Iran, logically this might just be the home of ancient Caucasoid types.If you're interested in a discussion about where the Caucasoid race originated, here's a thread:

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=41954
Quilon
10-02-2008, 01:17 AM
Yeah.I agree with you about India. There's obviously a strong Caucasoid element in India, but it's, like you say, not Caucasoid to the same extent as in Western Eurasia (some Australoid admixture exists in Indians).
Well Australoid peoples in Australia are a separate genetically isolate group. They are quiet different from indians all-together. And Indians are some-what unique by themselves also, call it whatever name you feel comfortable with: Veddoid, Dravidian or just plain Indian. There is a genetically unique feel/nature about the indian population from others.

Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India's caste system: http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/05_01/Indo-European.shtmlAgreed.Well put. There is nothing European about North-West Indian groups. South-Asian Caucasoids are also genetically unique by themselves. Both the Irano-afghan and Gracil-indid features originated in north-western indian environment. Indian Caucasoids most likely originated around iran region during late stone-age period, and then migrated towards to south-asia.

What I'm personally curious about, is why there's such a genetic gap between real Arabs and the rest of the Middle East. My best guess is that while the Arabs of the Arabian peninsula originated from early Caucasoids, they've been relatively genetically isolated for quite some time in the peninsula.
I doubt Arabs were completely isolated from rest of the Middle East, and the genetic gap wasn't super huge either. Just like all other populations in middle-east, the ancient Arabs both mixed and kept some distance also. Not all Arab were Bedouins either, many of the greatest traveling merchants of the ancient world were arabs.

It should be remembered that there are differences between Northern-Arabians, who are closer to other middle-eastern populations. And the Southern-Arabians populations who have a stronger Horn-African influence. Its East-African influence(which is stronger in the south) that gives an unique nature for Arabian populations.
Quilon
10-02-2008, 01:38 AM
[/URL]Mahra... could it be the Mehri language you're talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehri_language
Yep, the people who speak the Mehri language still preserve some Horn-African features and genes.

This is interesting. It very well could be the case that Caucasoids entered the area and that there was some major gene replacement, but no language replacement. Meaning, Caucasoids adopted Semitic languages (which later evolved into Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew, etcetera). Personally middle-eastern Caucasoids adopting Semitic languages I don't buy completely, because invading peoples always push their language onto others. Plus The origin of Semitic languages is still unsolved, just as the origin of Indo-European languages remains unsolved. But to me, both Semitic and Indo-European languages most-likely originated in northern middle-east. But who really knows for sure...

If you're interested in a discussion about where the Caucasoid race originated, here's a thread:

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=41954

To late... I think I already joined in that thread discussion(at the very end of it) Very Happy
arabdna
10-02-2008, 09:47 AM
I wouldn't call Y-DNA J1 "arab marker" (partially because I'm no supporter of Arab supremacy over all Middle Eastern peoples). Jews also have a lot of J1 and Y-DNA J is common in the Caucasus as well as Europe. That said, I don't think it's right to grant Arabs some sort of genetic monopoly on Y-DNA J1:[/IMG][/URL]

Arabian Peninsula populations 75- 82 % j1 , yemen 85% j1 algeria 35%j1 , palistine 39% j1 , tunisia 30.1% j1 , syria 32.9% j1 , iraq 31% j1 , egypt 19.7%j1 , north sudan 35% j1 , amman jordan 40.6% j1

jews 8% j1

see carlos flores et al 2005 , semino et al 2004

i agree that there are many differences in arab mtdna cause during the early islamic era the harim (women) system Introduced to the arab world so most of arab men have harim from all over the world and we see the result now adays in the mtdna

EliasAlucard I,m smelling antisemitic (anti arab not jews cause j1 the semitic marker is much much more in arabia than jews) :cool:
Ethioboy
10-02-2008, 04:59 PM
The early african immigrants couldn't migrate northwards because the Ice-age period created major Desertification of the ancient middle-east. Ofcourse there would be some small pockets of green in the extreme northern middle-east, but early immigrants couldn't get there because Saudi, Iranian, and Saharan Deserts where all blocking the way(and Deserts were larger in there size than today). So the Early African immigrants could only go east-wards towards India for the time-being. Later when the climate got better, immigrants from India finally got westwards towards Middle-east.
no.. there was two factions.. the early one did go through the southern arabia into india and the pacific.. but there was a second faction straight out of africa that went into arabia north into europe and asia

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/photogalleries/journey_of_man/images/popup/jm2l.jpg
ofcourse there might have been some back migration from india.. but that wasnt the main migratory route as the out of africa theory explains..

I wouldn't call the aboriginal populations of southern-arabia caucasoids, most likely they were more closely connected to the East-african populations. Meaning they are more similar to Hone-africans and not related to any Caucasoid group. The Mahra people maybe the last surviving vestige of these ancient peoples. And these aboriginal southern-arabians may even be the people who later introduced E1b1b into middle-east.
no they had their own amount of adaptation... they were caucasoid as in metrics... however I dont know much about the dna of them... perhaps e3b.. but the majority came through the migrations from the west side of the red sea to the east, as well as the slave trade in E. Africa which brought large amounts of e3b and e3a carrying africans to arabia.. it was also native there... because the J1 and J2 haplogroups didnt come into existence until they mutated in the levant (iraq/former babylonia)....... from there it went south.. and became the dominant y haplogroup of arabs there...


I don't think levant is where J1 comes into existence, for me its mostly likely in Iran/Iraq where both J1 and J2 originated. IMO, Iran may even be the place where Caucasoid types originated from, and then spread out in all different direction. Majority of Haplotypes found in many Caucasoid groups, all seem to be represented in Iran, logically this might just be the home of ancient Caucasoid types.
iraq exactly.. that is part of the levant if i am not wrong... and you are right when saying "asia minor".. persia and iraq was the cradle for asians and caucasians....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Levant.png
Quilon
10-02-2008, 11:20 PM
no.. there was two factions.. the early one did go through the southern arabia into india and the pacific.. but there was a second faction straight out of africa that went into arabia north into europe and asia

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/photogalleries/journey_of_man/images/popup/jm2l.jpg
ofcourse there might have been some back migration from india.. but that wasnt the main migratory route as the out of africa theory explains..

National Geographic's "Journey of man" still is pushing out alot of outdated information. Its almost irresponsible for someone like Spencer Wells to not put more correct information by now already. That map needs a major touch-up, because there are many problems with the migratory routes as they show it.

Haplogroup F(M89) most likely survived and later expanded out from India. So all of the major migrations just went through the southern arabia into india mainly. Middle-east was only populated later only. To this day Haplogroup F(M89) seem to occur only among populations of India and East Asia. Therefore M89 rise to dominance may have been in South-Asia and not Middle East.

no they had their own amount of adaptation... they were caucasoid as in metrics... however I dont know much about the dna of them...
Caucasoid in metrics doesn't mean anything. There are Africans, Tamils, Native-Americans and some East-Asians can look almost Caucasoid even without much West-Eurasian mixing.

perhaps e3b.. but the majority came through the migrations from the west side of the red sea to the east,
Yep I agree them having E3b. Its most likely these original Arabians who introduced E3b into middle-east(maybe along with some Haplogroup T, mtdna m1 and L3).

iraq exactly.. that is part of the levant if i am not wrong... and you are right when saying "asia minor".. persia and iraq was the cradle for asians and caucasians....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Levant.png
I thought Levant or Levantine mainly stand for Palestine towards Syria. But even with the Iraqi Levant, I am mainly point more east towards Persia.

Persia itself maybe cradle for caucasians only. Middle-east isn't genetically diverse enough to be home for the rest of other non-african peoples(like the east-asians or indians.)
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:59 am

Quilon
10-03-2008, 03:27 AM
In the documentary "The Real Eve," Geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer hints the populating of middle-east and Europe from the same single-line that came outside of Africa. An Eastern South-Asian origin for ancient Middle-eastern and Europeans is what this documentary is also pointing towards(fast-forward to 6:37 and onwards to listen to what Stephen Oppenheimer has to say).

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie"
</param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://ca.youtube.com/v/SDaWFHWaj94&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
ResearcherJim
10-03-2008, 08:38 AM
...
But what people forget is J1s still very much present in the north, meaning it didn't completely disappear into arabia(because its even found in good number in both Persia and the Caucasus regions). Which is why its dumb when some people say all J1 in northern middle-east is only coming from the later invading Muslim Arabs. ...



Evidence indicating that statement is correct is to be found in J1 with DYS388=13, a type which is not associated with any particular ethnicity or religion. Its place of origin in the north is beyond the area associated with Arabs and Jews, and almost no cases of this type have been found among those populations. In its home region, J1 with DYS388=13 has been found among Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians, one Iranian of probable Anatolian descent, and several ethnic groups in the Caucasus.

Map of cases: http://tinyurl.com/3kwulm

Jim
J1 w/DYS388=13
Compass
10-03-2008, 12:54 PM
Hi Jim,

I am Referring you to the Arab J1 Y-DNA project, there are two Arabs with DYS388=13, all J1 Haplotypes available in Arabs, the only sub clad not found in Arabs until now is J1b.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject&fixed_columns=on
ResearcherJim
10-03-2008, 01:42 PM
Hi Jim,

I am Referring you to the Arab J1 Y-DNA project, there are two Arabs with DYS388=13, all J1 Haplotypes available in Arabs, the only sub clad not found in Arabs until now is J1b.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject&fixed_columns=on

Thank you, I noticed them already. Bahr's ancestry is German, so I don't know why he joined the Arab project.

The other one is one-of-a-kind from a location very far south of the rest of the cluster, so I don't know how it fits.

Regards,
Jim
Compass
10-03-2008, 01:54 PM
Hi Jim,

Bahr is an Arab from Kenya living in Germany, the other one is a Sharif (Adnanite Arab) from Saudi Arabia .

Regards
ResearcherJim
10-03-2008, 02:07 PM
Hi Jim,

Bahr is an Arab from Kenya living in Germany, the other one is a Sharif (Adnanite Arab) from Saudi Arabia .

Regards

Arab from Kenya? No, the Bahr with J1 DYS388=13 has this earliest known ancestor:

Ysearch 43amd
First Name: Albrecht
Last Name: Bahr
Year Born: About 1625
Year Died: 1679
Country of Origin: Mecklenburg, Germany

Regards,
Jim
Compass
10-03-2008, 02:30 PM
Hi Jim,

I don’t want to discuss (personal ) information of a member in the forum, without his Permeation .

Regards
ResearcherJim
10-03-2008, 02:35 PM
Ysearch is public information.

I'll e-mail him. We have corresponded several times.

Regards,
Jim
Compass
10-03-2008, 02:48 PM
Hi Jim,

This is better, we both will know the truth. I will be great full if you forward or CC me the mail after yours and his permeation of course,

jaberaaaa@yahoo.com

Regards
Compass
10-03-2008, 05:52 PM
You are right Jim; I discussed the subject with the Admn. Of the Arab World DNA, Bahr is a member there also, he confirmed to me that he is German, so we left with one DYS388=13 which is only a single case we can’t build a case on him.

Regards
EliasAlucard
10-03-2008, 10:50 PM
Well Australoid peoples in Australia are a separate genetically isolate group. They are quiet different from indians all-together. And Indians are some-what unique by themselves also, call it whatever name you feel comfortable with: Veddoid, Dravidian or just plain Indian. There is a genetically unique feel/nature about the indian population from others.Not that I doubt what you're saying or anything, but I'd like to know on which genetic studies you base your opinion on regarding Indians? Also, in your opinion, do you believe there exists a Caucasoid gene pool in Indians?There is nothing European about North-West Indian groups. South-Asian Caucasoids are also genetically unique by themselves.I don't think that article seriously stated that Indians are Europeans; it's just saying that Europeans influenced India genetically for some time and to some extent. You know, as in European gene flow?Both the Irano-afghan and Gracil-indid features originated in north-western indian environment. Indian Caucasoids most likely originated around iran region during late stone-age period, and then migrated towards to south-asia.I'm just checking if I got you right: you do consider the Irano-Afghan subrace (as it is called in physical anthropology) to be genetically Caucasoid, right?I doubt Arabs were completely isolated from rest of the Middle East, and the genetic gap wasn't super huge either.The gap is not super huge, but it is quite big considering the geographic distance between Jordan and Saudi Arabia.Just like all other populations in middle-east, the ancient Arabs both mixed and kept some distance also. Not all Arab were Bedouins either, many of the greatest traveling merchants of the ancient world were arabs.Sure, Arabs did mix, but it obviously wasn't enough to influence the genetic distance with the rest of the Middle East. Also, what's interesting, is that the Druze people (according to Dienekes) seem to have around 50% European genes, and around 20% Central South Asian genes (all Caucasoid gene pools). Bedouins also have European genes, but it's a lot less than Druze. This affects the genetic distance between the Near East and the Arabian peninsula.

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7946/structuresciencefy4.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=structuresciencefy4.jpg)http://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Source:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/02/huge-paper-on-human-genetic.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/06/admixture-estimate-vs-population-of.html

http://tinypic.com/e8u7w7.gif

Druze 24, Danes 23, Yemenites 22. Apparently, Druze are closer to Danes than they are to Yemenites. Doesn't that tell you something? Cavalli-Sforza places Yemenites, Bedouins and Saudi Arabs, quite separated from other Middle Eastern ethnic groups. And it's the same with other haplogroup results.

Another image here:

http://tinypic.com/dxifrb.gif

The distance between Druze and Yemenites Jews (YeJ) is quite big considering that they're fairly close geographically.

The last two images are taken from this thread:

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/showthread.php5?t=22765It should be remembered that there are differences between Northern-Arabians, who are closer to other middle-eastern populations. And the Southern-Arabians populations who have a stronger Horn-African influence. Its East-African influence(which is stronger in the south) that gives an unique nature for Arabian populations.Right.Yep, the people who speak the Mehri language still preserve some Horn-African features and genes.This is very interesting. Do you have some more genetic information about the Mehri people?Personally middle-eastern Caucasoids adopting Semitic languages I don't buy completely, because invading peoples always push their language onto others.It doesn't necessarily have to be an invasion we're talking about here. For example:

Two representatives of the Uralic family appear in the tree, Samoyeds (living East of the Urals) plus neighboring populations, and Saame (usually called Lapps) who live in northern Scandinavia. The first are genetically Mongoloids, and the second Caucasoids. Further genetic analysis, however (Guglielmino-Matessi et al. 1991; see also chap. 5) showed Lapps are a mixture of Caucasoids and people of Uralic origin who are Mongoloid. The contribution of the latter is less important and Lapps therefore associate in the genetic tree with Caucasoids. The Simplest explanation is that gene flow going on for a millennia from their neighbors of Caucasoid origin (see sec. 1.17 and chap. 5), has caused enough gene replacement in Lapps to produce their now predominantly European-looking gene pool without language replacement.
— Cavalli-Sforza et al., The History and Geography of Human Genes, p. 100, ISBN 0691087504 (http://books.google.com/books?id=FrwNcwKaUKoC&dq=isbn:0691087504)

A similar scenario is quite possible in the case of Arabs. Caucasoid gene flow for a very long time into the Arabian peninsula, which more or less resulted in a gene replacement, but not language replacement.Plus The origin of Semitic languages is still unsolved, just as the origin of Indo-European languages remains unsolved. But to me, both Semitic and Indo-European languages most-likely originated in northern middle-east. But who really knows for sure...Yeah, the farther back in time, the more controversy about the origins of PIE (proto-Indo-European) and PAA (proto-Afro-Asiatic).To late... I think I already joined in that thread discussion(at the very end of it) :DOh all right then, I'll answer you soon :)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b9/Levant.pngThat's the Levant+Mesopotamia. The Levant is more like Syria+Lebanon+Israel+Jordan:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/The_Levant_3.png/200px-The_Levant_3.pngArabian Peninsula populations 75- 82 % j1 , yemen 85% j1 algeria 35%j1 , palistine 39% j1 , tunisia 30.1% j1 , syria 32.9% j1 , iraq 31% j1 , egypt 19.7%j1 , north sudan 35% j1 , amman jordan 40.6% j1

jews 8% j1You can copy and paste from Wiki. What's your point? Haplogroup J is in no way the genetic property of Arabs. It's common amongst Arabs in the Arabian peninsula. But Y-DNA J as a whole, exists outside of the Arabian peninsula. Y-DNA J even exists in the Caucasus and southern Europe. How do you explain that? Y-DNA J is somewhere around 30,000 years old. Is the Arabic language that old? No. Hence, J1 cannot be an Arab marker. It's strongly associated with speakers of the Arabic language today, but it's in no way theirs and theirs alone.see carlos flores et al 2005 , semino et al 2004Anything specific you want me to check?i agree that there are many differences in arab mtdna cause during the early islamic era the harim (women) system Introduced to the arab world so most of arab men have harim from all over the world and we see the result now adays in the mtdnaThat sounds plausible.EliasAlucard I,m smelling antisemitic (anti arab not jews cause j1 the semitic marker is much much more in arabia than jews) :cool:How cute. An Arab accuses me of "anti-Semitism". For your information, I'm Assyrian and we're a Semitic people too, so technically I can't be an anti-Semite (whatever that means; Semites are not racially or genetically homogeneous anyway; Semite is just a linguistic group).

And Jews do have a lot of Y-DNA J as well. How do you explain that? Here's a study you might want to read:

High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:00 am

Ethioboy
10-04-2008, 05:16 AM
National Geographic's "Journey of man" still is pushing out alot of outdated information. Its almost irresponsible for someone like Spencer Wells to not put more correct information by now already. That map needs a major touch-up, because there are many problems with the migratory routes as they show it.

Haplogroup F(M89) most likely survived and later expanded out from India. So all of the major migrations just went through the southern arabia into india mainly. Middle-east was only populated later only. To this day Haplogroup F(M89) seem to occur only among populations of India and East Asia. Therefore M89 rise to dominance may have been in South-Asia and not Middle East.
read up about the out of africa theory.. I can give you another map if u want.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/images/080221-human-genetics_big.jpg
http://www.progonos.com/furuti/MapProj/Normal/ProjAppl/Img/ooa.png
http://www.raritanval.edu/departments/Science/images/genedispersalmap.jpg


Caucasoid in metrics doesn't mean anything. There are Africans, Tamils, Native-Americans and some East-Asians can look almost Caucasoid even without much West-Eurasian mixing.
alright we can talk about genes if you want.


Yep I agree them having E3b. Its most likely these original Arabians who introduced E3b into middle-east(maybe along with some Haplogroup T, mtdna m1 and L3).
it is rather the opposite imo.. J1 and J2 was introduced through the mesapotamians in the north coming south, and becoming the majority, while the e3b became a minority through extensive intermixing..


I thought Levant or Levantine mainly stand for Palestine towards Syria. But even with the Iraqi Levant, I am mainly point more east towards Persia.
i believe it was in mesapotamia because that is where abraham the father of the semite race arab and jew originated, assuming he was the origional carrier of J1 and/or j2

Persia itself maybe cradle for caucasians only. Middle-east isn't genetically diverse enough to be home for the rest of other non-african peoples(like the east-asians or indians.)
it was persia, the levant and mesapotamia..
arabdna
10-04-2008, 10:27 AM
You can copy and paste from Wiki. What's your point? Haplogroup J is in no way the genetic property of Arabs. And Jews do have a lot of Y-DNA J as well. How do you explain that? Here's a study you might want to read:

High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

Please read Carefully i never mentioned J or J2 cause neither of them is an arabic markers , i said J1 , cause J2 it is not an arabic marker it is distributed all over the old world from india to europe every where you will find the following statement : The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic countries with mainly non-Arabic countries, such as Turkey and Iran , see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)
you said , I'm Assyrian and we're a Semitic people too, check the assyrian dna project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject
most of them are R1b haplogroup (west europian) so how come you are a semitic
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Please read Carefully i never mentioned J or J2 cause neither of them is an arabic markers , i said J1 , cause J2 it is not an arabic marker it is distributed all over the old world from india to europe every where you will find the following statement : The frequency of Haplogroup J1 collapses suddenly at the borders of Arabic countries with mainly non-Arabic countries, such as Turkey and Iran , see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)
you said , I'm Assyrian and we're a Semitic people too, check the assyrian dna project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/AssyrianHeritageDNAProject
most of them are R1b haplogroup (west europian) so how come you are a semiticSemitic has nothing to do with haplogroups, haplotypes and subclades. You are a Semite if you speak a Semitic language (I speak Lebanese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Arabic) and understand some Assyrian Neo-Aramaic aka Syriac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoyo_language)). Ethiopians and Eritreans are Semites too, despite the fact that they are somewhere around 60% Negroid and 40% Caucasoid. Semite is not a racial term, it just denotes speakers of Semitic languages. Speakers of Semitic languages, are in no way a biologically homogeneous group. Just as ethnic speakers of Indo-European languages, although most of them racially Caucasoid, are in no way biologically homogeneous (you have all kinds of haplotypes found amongst speakers of IE-languages). In general, language is not a good indicator of your race and genes (especially not in Western Eurasia). I would highly recommend you to read Cavalli-Sforza, The History and Geography of Human Genes, from page 98 to 102; he has an entire section devoted to genes/race and languages, and how they don't always correlate as a result of various gene replacement and language replacement throughout history.

Look, you just can't call J1 an Arab marker or a Semitic marker. If you do, you complicate things further, because you are basically implying that Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians) (a people indigenous to the Caucasus and speakers of a south Caucasian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_language)) are somehow Arabs too because they tend to have a lot of Y-DNA J. You have to be consistent here. Tajiks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks) have a lot of R1a1, that doesn't make them Assyrians just because Assyrians have alot of R1a1 and R1b1. These haplogroups don't mean much from a racial point of view, they're only a proof of ancient migrations, long before modern ethnic groups that exist now, evolved through ethnogenesis:In principle, all men should therefore carry the identical sequence of DNA letters on their Y chromosomes, but in fact occasional misspellings have occurred, and because each misspelling is then repeated in subsequent generations, the branching lineages of errors form a family tree rooted in the original Adam.

These variant spellings are in DNA that is not involved in the genes and therefore has no effect on the body. But the type and abundance of the lineages in each population serve as genetic signature by which to compare different populations. Source: http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346genetics.html

Basically, the older a haplogroup is, the less it tells you about your race. You have to remember that most haplogroups are somewhere around 60,000-30,000 years old, and the haplotypes and subclades are around 20,000-10,000 years old. In other words, pretty much all haplotypes cannot be tied to a specific language, because most haplogroups are older than extant languages.
solomon
10-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Hi Jim,

Bahr is an Arab from Kenya living in Germany, the other one is a Sharif (Adnanite Arab) from Saudi Arabia .

Regards


by´the way the sharif in the J1 project is not from saudi arabia but from Ethiopia.

best
ResearcherJim
10-04-2008, 01:40 PM
by´the way the sharif in the J1 project is not from saudi arabia but from Ethiopia.

best

Could I just clarify, do you mean case 79365 in the Arab J1 Project?

Regards,
Jim
solomon
10-04-2008, 02:19 PM
no: its case 56111, he is the only sharif in the family tree dna Arab J1 project so far.
Compass
10-04-2008, 02:23 PM
Hi Solomon,

there are 8 Sharif’s in the project, this is one from saudi Arabia, the one from Ethiopia is 56111

You can find more information about the Ethiopian (Somali) Sharif in the following project under results, Brief Descriptions of Participants' Genealogies No 7.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArabianPeninsulaDNAProject/


Regards
solomon
10-04-2008, 02:34 PM
Hi Solomon,

there are 8 Sharif’s in the project, this is one from saudi Arabia, the one from Ethiopia is 56111

Regards

yes but maybe i am an sharif too although i am christian orthodox. f´rom my mutations i am either of ancient israelite descent or adnanite/arab background. my case number is E5794...its really hard to know
solomon
10-04-2008, 02:43 PM
@compass: by the way there only 2 or 3 adnanites among those 8. the rest is not adanite
Compass
10-04-2008, 03:12 PM
Hi Solomon,

Maybe you are a Sharif too, because I believe you are a son of Abraham so way not, but you need an oral tradition to support it.
You are right about the Adnanite Arabs .
Regards
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:01 am

Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:22 PM
About the Sharif/Saeedi, my boyfriend who's Afghani says his descendent of Muhammad the prophet, is it many Afghans who is it?
ResearcherJim
10-04-2008, 03:31 PM
Dimsjo,

Does he mean a direct male descendant, or does he mean a descendant by a daughter or granddaughter or anyone in the family tree?

Regards,
Jim
solomon
10-04-2008, 03:35 PM
About the Sharif/Saeedi, my boyfriend who's Afghani says his descendent of Muhammad the prophet, is it many Afghans who is it?


since my girlfriend was afgahni too, i know there are many afghanis who claim to be saids/sharifs. since there is also agreat amount of J1s in the afghan population.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Dimsjo,

Does he mean a direct male descendant, or does he mean a descendant by a daughter or granddaughter or anyone in the family tree?

Regards,
Jim

I think direct from his mother's side, her brothers name start with Saeedi.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:41 PM
since my girlfriend was afgahni too, i know there are many afghanis who claim to be saids/sharifs. since there is also agreat amount of J1s in the afghan population.

Oh more Habesha + Afghani couple's Smile Nice to see, I thought we were the only H + A couple, lol...

by the way,

She's Tajik.
Gia
10-04-2008, 03:43 PM
since my girlfriend was afgahni too, i know there are many afghanis who claim to be saids/sharifs. since there is also agreat amount of J1s in the afghan population.

LOL!! That explains my Grandma's claim that she is a real Syed. She is of Afghan descent as well. I don't know what J1 is but if it has something to do with Arabs, believe me it's not there (or not as much as you are making it out to be).
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 03:44 PM
About the Sharif/Saeedi, my boyfriend who's Afghani says his descendent of Muhammad the prophet, is it many Afghans who is it?lol, he's bullshitting you. That's like the equivalent of a FYROM saying he's a descendant of Alexander the Great.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:45 PM
Is this J1 in the main ethnic groups as Pashtun and Tajik?
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:46 PM
lol, he's bullshitting you. That's like the equivalent of a FYROM saying he's the descendant of Alexander the Great.

Why would he? By the way he is Atetist so he wouldn't give a damn if he was it or not. And this is a oral story in his family so it can be true or not.
Gia
10-04-2008, 03:48 PM
Is this J1 in the main ethnic groups as Pashtun and Tajik?

No way.. they are more of a mix of East Iranians, Central Asians and the rest of South Asians.
solomon
10-04-2008, 03:50 PM
Is this J1 in the main ethnic groups as Pashtun and Tajik?

J1 is a haplogroup indicating arab or ancient/israelie mutations. if an afghani has this haplogroup it is very likely that he is of arab/israelite descent. it is very possible that there afghnas who have arab ancestry in my opinion.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:50 PM
No way.. they are more of a mix of East Iranians, Central Asians and the rest of South Asians.

Yeah I know,

but what I meant was, does some of these mixes have it?
Gia
10-04-2008, 03:54 PM
J1 is a haplogroup indicating arab or ancient/israelie mutations. if an afghani has this haplogroup it is very likely that he is of arab/israelite descent. it is very possible that there afghnas who have arab ancestry in my opinion.

What? If anything, they are more related to Iranians and Central Asians than Arabs. Israelite descent? You are kidding me, right? It's one of those lame theories floating on the Internet. Pashtuns aren't descendants of one of the lost Israeli tribes.. lol Yes, there are Afghans who have Arab ancestry but it's probably as much as any Pakistanis having any Arab ancestry, which is not all that much.
Gia
10-04-2008, 03:55 PM
Yeah I know,

but what I meant was, does some of these mixes have it?

Well yes, not in huge amounts though..
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 03:57 PM
I see, thank you! Smile
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Why would he?Because it's not something he can know for certain. It's not possible to trace your lineage/ancestry 1,400 years back to some obscure tribal ruler in the Arabian peninsula. Unless of course, you find the grave of Muhammed, dig up his skeleton, and take some gene samples from it.By the way he is Atetist so he wouldn't give a damn if he was it or not.Even so, if I were a descendant of Muhammed, I wouldn't flaunt around with it like some braggadocio. The pseudo-prophet Muhammed isn't someone to be proud of. It's not a sign of status.

Also, it's spelled atheist.And this is a oral story in his family so it can be true or not.Right, oral stories, very reliable stuff.
solomon
10-04-2008, 03:58 PM
What? If anything, they are more related to Iranians and Central Asians than Arabs. Israelite descent? You are kidding me, right? It's one of those lame theories floating on the Internet. Pashtuns aren't descendants of one of the lost Israeli tribes.. lol Yes, there are Afghans who have Arab ancestry but it's probably as much as any Pakistanis having any Arab ancestry, which is not all that much.

i am not kidding there are many afghans, around 10 %, who are in the J1 haplogroup with clearly adnanite/israelite mutations (391=10 and 388=16) like myself. this is reality.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Because it's not something he can know for certain. It's not possible to trace your lineage/ancestry 1,400 years to some obscure tribal ruler in the Arabian peninsula. Unless of course, you find the grave of Muhammed, dig up his skeleton, and take some gene samples from it.

I know but then you can say it to all Saeedis and Sharif. If people want's to belive they are, let them, it dosen't hurt anyone, let them.

Even so, if I were a descendant of Muhammed, I would flaunt around with it like some braggadocio. The pseudo-prophet Muhammed isn't someone to be proud of. It's not a sign of status.

Some might think it's a huge thing (I don't since I think we all are equal). And he means much to many so I can understand why they are proud of it.

Right, oral stories, very reliable stuff.

Mmm...
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:01 am

EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 04:01 PM
i am not kidding there are many afghans, around 10 %, who are in the J1 haplogroup with clearly adnanite/israelite mutations (391=10 and 388=16) like myself. this is reality.J1 is not the sole genetic property of ancient Israelites nor of Arabs. J1 mutated long before the Semitic tribes in the Middle East began developing. Very likely, J1 has been around in Afghans long before Islam and without Semitic influence.
Gia
10-04-2008, 04:03 PM
^ Exactly.. Afghans are not related to Israelis.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Afghanistan was in the center of the Silk road, so I guess you can find pretty much diffirent haplogroups there... (Even if this J1 was before it).
Gia
10-04-2008, 04:08 PM
Afghanistan was in the center of the Silk road, so I guess you can find pretty much diffirent haplogroups there... (Even if this J1 was before it).


Yes, very strategic location as a matter of fact. It can be a part of Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.. It is quite diverse.
solomon
10-04-2008, 04:10 PM
J1 is not the sole genetic property of ancient Israelites nor of Arabs. J1 mutated long before the Semitic tribes in the Middle East began developing. Very likely, J1 has been around in Afghans long before Islam and without Semitic influence.

yes, you are talking about neolithic J1s. but there are certain markers who conclude a recent jewish/adanite descent. these markers are mainly 391=10 and 388=16. many afghans have this recent mutations. check the J1 arab project of family tree dna. btw israelis and ancient israelites are two different things. even the prophet muhammed is somehow from an israelite line through abraham who fathered ismael with kedar.
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 04:11 PM
Yes, very strategic location as a matter of fact. It can be a part of Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.. It is quite diverse.

Yeah, and you can finds all these looks in one country (and family like my boyfriend's). A uniqe and beautiful populaiton who's diverse in a diverse region!
Gia
10-04-2008, 04:14 PM
yes, you are talking about neolithic J1s. but there are certain markers who conclude a recent jewish/adanite descent. these markers are mainly 391=10 and 388=16. many afghans have this recent mutations. check the J1 arab project of family tree dna. btw israelis and ancient israelites are two different things. even the prophet muhammed is somehow from an israelite line through abraham who fathered ismael with kedar.

Why don't you post the link here?
solomon
10-04-2008, 04:19 PM
Why don't you post the link here?


https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject&fixed_columns=on

i dont try to fool you. family tree dna told me straight that i am either from an ancient israelite or adnanite/arab line. i particapate also in the j1 project. these are facts. there are certain genetic markers who indicate recent arab/israelite descent.
Gia
10-04-2008, 04:35 PM
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J1arabproject&fixed_columns=on

i dont try to fool you. family tree dna told me straight that i am either from an ancient israelite or adnanite/arab line. i particapate also in the j1 project. these are facts. there are certain genetic markers who indicate recent arab/israelite descent.

I don't understand this or maybe I just don't know how to read it. How does this have anything to do with Afghans who claim to be Syed. They sure as hell like to claim that they are real Syeds or whatever but your J1 Project doesn't say that their haplogroup is really J1.
solomon
10-04-2008, 04:46 PM
I don't understand this or maybe I just don't know how to read it. How does this have anything to do with Afghans who claim to be Syed. They sure as hell like to claim that they are real Syeds or whatever but your J1 Project doesn't say that their haplograph is really J1.

there are some afghans with same mutations as the people in the j1 project. just check ysearch.com database you will find some afghans with the same J1 mutations.

best

btw: why is it so unbelievable for you that some afghans are of adnanite7israelie descent ? there are also many afghans who are mongoloids. its a mixed country
Gia
10-04-2008, 04:49 PM
there are some afghans with same mutations as the people in the j1 project. just check ysearch.com database you will find some afghans with the same J1 mutations.

best

btw: why is it so unbelievable for you that some afghans are of adnanite7israelie descent ? there are also many afghans who are mongoloids. its a mixed country

For one, I am of Afghan descent, Pashtun. Second, Israel is far away from Afghanistan. If North East Iran has no J1, how can Afghans have it? Some of them m ight have it but it's not as much as even 10% (Jews in Afghanistan/Pakistan, very small minorities). There are Mongoloid/Turanoid Afghans (hazaras, uzbeks, and Tajiks). I am one of the Turanoid looking ones myself..
solomon
10-04-2008, 04:56 PM
[QUOTE=Gia;495266]For one, I am of Afghan descent, Pashtun. Second, Arabia is far away from Afghanistan. If North East Iran has no J1, how can Afghans have it? Some of them m ight have it but it's not as much as even 10%. There are Mongoloid/Turanoid Afghans (hazaras, uzbeks, and Tajiks). I am one of the Turanoid looking ones myself..[/QUOT

you are wrong there are J1s in iran. the schiites claim to be descended from the prophet too by the way. and if you look at a world map arabia is not so much away from afghanistan.
Gia
10-04-2008, 05:01 PM
For one, I am of Afghan descent, Pashtun. Second, Arabia is far away from Afghanistan. If North East Iran has no J1, how can Afghans have it? Some of them m ight have it but it's not as much as even 10%. There are Mongoloid/Turanoid Afghans (hazaras, uzbeks, and Tajiks). I am one of the Turanoid looking ones myself..

you are wrong there are J1s in iran. the schiites claim to be descended from the prophet too by the way. and if you look at a world map arabia is not so much away from afghanistan.

I meant Israel. Read my post again, I made some changes.
solomon
10-04-2008, 05:09 PM
I meant Israel. Read my post again, I made some changes.


israel is even nearer to afghanistan than arabia Smile
Incal
10-04-2008, 05:19 PM
btw: why is it so unbelievable for you that some afghans are of adnanite7israelie descent ? there are also many afghans who are mongoloids. its a mixed country

Muslims and jews are not exactly the best friends in the world you know...
Gia
10-04-2008, 05:23 PM
israel is even nearer to afghanistan than arabia Smile

Arabian peninsula is farther away from Afghanistan than Israel? Very funny.. I know the southern part of Iran is mostly populated by Arabs and they could have migrated into Afghanistan.. And Oman is pretty close to Pakistan, but Afghanistan is pretty north up.. Isreal is about 3 countries away- three huge countries: Iran, Iraq, and Jordan. Israel is on the other end of the Middle East.. lol. You have more chances of finding Pakistanis with Arab haplogroup than Afghans.
solomon
10-04-2008, 05:29 PM
Arabian peninsula is farther away from Afghanistan than Israel? Very funny.. I know the southern part of Iran is mostly populated by Arabs and they could have migrated into Afghanistan.. And Oman is pretty close to Pakistan, but Afghanistan is pretty north up.. Isreal is about 3 countries away- three huge countries: Iran, Iraq, and Jordan. Israel is on the other end of the Middle East.. lol. You have more chances of finding Pakistanis with Arab haplogroup than Afghans.

i mean that if you come from the north israel is not that much away. but you are righ arabia is somehow closer
Incal
10-04-2008, 05:30 PM
About the Sharif/Saeedi, my boyfriend who's Afghani says his descendent of Muhammad the prophet, is it many Afghans who is it?

I've realized many muslims claim this. I understand since in the Islamic world Muhammed is like the hottest artist in the West. But anybody knows if it's punishable in muslim countries to claim false prophet ancestry? (but again I guess it must be really difficult to prove or disprove this)


lol, he's bullshitting you. That's like the equivalent of a FYROM saying he's a descendant of Alexander the Great.

LOL
Gia
10-04-2008, 05:32 PM
i mean that if you come from the north israel is not that much away. but you are righ arabia is somehow closer

Yeah, that whole J1 study/project just doesn't seem to fit. It makes no sense for Afghans to have more J1 than the countries between Israel and Afghanistan.
Gia
10-04-2008, 05:33 PM
I've realized many muslims claim this. I understand since in the Islamic world Muhammed is like the hottest artist in the West. But anybody knows if it's punishable in muslim countries to claim false prophet ancestry? (but again I guess it must be really difficult to prove or disprove this)




LOL


OMG I am like so gonna die laughing.. LMAO!!!
solomon
10-04-2008, 05:34 PM
Yeah, that whole J1 study/project just doesn't seem to fit. It makes no sense for Afghans to have more J1 than the countries between Israel and Afghanistan.

i didnt say they have more j1 but they have it
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:02 am

Ethioboy
10-04-2008, 05:35 PM
^ Exactly.. Afghans are not related to Israelis.

you cant make generalizations as such (not directed at you necessarily in general).. a person who carries the same mutation of J1 with another regardless of area has a common ancestor... the J1 haplogroup origionated in the southern fertile crescent.. as is commonly accepted and has spread East west, north and south throught the middle eastern and caucausus region.. and was the marker for the arab expansion in N. Africa.... b/c the arabs, were the largest carriers of the haplogroup..
Ethioboy
10-04-2008, 05:37 PM
J1 is not the sole genetic property of ancient Israelites nor of Arabs. J1 mutated long before the Semitic tribes in the Middle East began developing. Very likely, J1 has been around in Afghans long before Islam and without Semitic influence.

arab is an abbreviation for Arabian.. so yes.. the arabian tribes were still technically semites since they came up with the language.. regardless it can still be an arab marker (or in general middle eastern)regardless of if you speak a semetic language or not, since the origional carrier of the haplogroup was from the middle east/Northern arabia, southern fertile crescent
Ethioboy
10-04-2008, 05:42 PM
For one, I am of Afghan descent, Pashtun. Second, Israel is far away from Afghanistan. If North East Iran has no J1, how can Afghans have it? Some of them m ight have it but it's not as much as even 10% (Jews in Afghanistan/Pakistan, very small minorities). There are Mongoloid/Turanoid Afghans (hazaras, uzbeks, and Tajiks). I am one of the Turanoid looking ones myself..

here is a map showing the percentages of haplogroup J1 in the middle eastern area.. north east iran does have j1.. so does afghanistan.
(bottom pic)


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5671/12302103tm7.jpg
Gia
10-04-2008, 05:53 PM
here is a map showing the percentages of haplogroup J1 in the middle eastern area.. north east iran does have j1.. so does afghanistan.
(bottom pic)


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5671/12302103tm7.jpg

Do you happen to have the description (captians) for these pictures? I don't know what these pictures mean. The wave that crosses North Afghanistan, Central Pakistan, and Southern West India cannot be defining the same people. North Afghans are mainly Central Asians, Central Pakistanis are Norindid, Southern Indians are Dravidians. How are they related according to this map?
Ethioboy
10-04-2008, 06:12 PM
^ its the percentages of people carrying the J1 haplogroup in the middle east... and yes they are all related through one common ancestor... the origional carrier of the mutated gene J1..
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 06:21 PM
yes, you are talking about neolithic J1s. but there are certain markers who conclude a recent jewish/adanite descent. these markers are mainly 391=10 and 388=16. many afghans have this recent mutations. check the J1 arab project of family tree dna.Yes, I know that many Arabs have J1; it's BESIDE THE POINT. It just doesn't matter, you can't claim an Arab monopoly on a haplotype. It just doesn't work that way. The J haplogroup is older than the Arabic language and haplogroups don't follow linguistic patterns.btw israelis and ancient israelites are two different things. even the prophet muhammed is somehow from an israelite line through abraham who fathered ismael with kedar.Modern Israeli Jews are definitely descendants of the ancient Israelites. Read this study:

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346genetics.html
Gia
10-04-2008, 06:24 PM
^ its the percentages of people carrying the J1 haplogroup in the middle east... and yes they are all related through one common ancestor... the origional carrier of the mutated gene J1..

Ok cool.. this makes much more sense. They sure don't display those genes today. This just goes to show you that all this genetic testing trying to relate two different groups of people doesn't prove anything when it comes to what your physical appearance is. At the end, we are all humans and are too much alike anyway..
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 08:02 PM
I've realized many muslims claim this. I understand since in the Islamic world Muhammed is like the hottest artist in the West. But anybody knows if it's punishable in muslim countries to claim false prophet ancestry? (but again I guess it must be really difficult to prove or disprove this)




LOL

Well I never said what i thought about it, just what was said about it (from other's).

LOL I think most of the people say that to "High class-people" to refer they are High Class, and to be related to the one who's ur Prophet is status... So I guess most of the time it's untrue and just an oral tradition to say like that. I don't say my boyfriend for example is trying to lie and be a Saeedi, but that what's ge grew up with. So I don't know and don't care if he is or not.

Like my mom say - We all shit
(whether ur something or not).
arabdna
10-04-2008, 08:12 PM
The pseudo-prophet Muhammed isn't someone to be proud of.

I it is clear now why you hate the ARAB


Jews are definitely descendants of the ancient Israelites.

Bullshitttttttttt it seem you know nothing about jewish Dna
Ezana
10-04-2008, 08:22 PM
Wow, this discussion went on longer than I expected.

Arabic-speaking peoples first show up in Northern and Central Saudi Arabia in the late BCE and early Common Era, with the ethnonym "Arab" possibly appearing as early as 853 BCE in an Assyrian inscription about the matu Arbai (possibly "Arab lands").


If we go according to Arab tradition (which isn't that far off), Arabs are descended from the Qahtan. Indeed, there was an ethnic?/political group speaking an early form of Arabic in S. Saudi Arabia in the 3rd century (earliest reference to them) called the Qahtan, with their capital at Qaryat al-Faw (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=qaryat+al-faw&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=38.826758,93.164063&ie=UTF8&ll=19.795133,45.133209&spn=0.722301,1.455688&t=h&z=10). They were part of the same state as the Kinda.


Check out Kenneth Kitchen's Documentation for Ancient Arabia (http://books.google.com/books?id=k_w_UPaBCqUC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&source=web&ots=BnrY76e4CQ&sig=XRBAw93taQNPwXk1HjlAelweAjk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result).
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 08:32 PM
I it is clear now why you hate the ARABSo, because I consider Muhammad to be a false prophet, you automatically interpret that as hate of Arabs? What kind of logic is that?Bullshitttttttttt it seem you now nothing about jewish DnaPlease tell me then, which are the ancestors of modern Israeli Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc.)?Arabic-speaking peoples first show up in Northern and Central Saudi Arabia in the late BCE and early Common Era, with the ethnonym "Arab" possibly appearing as early as 853 BCE in an Assyrian inscription about the matu Arbai (possibly "Arab lands").According to Assyriologist Simo Parpola, it's “Arbāyu”:

From the late eighth century BC on, ethnonyms like Arbāyu “Arab”, Mādāyu “Mede”, Muşurāyu “Egyptian”, and Urarţāyu “Urartian” frequently appear as personal names borne by fully Assyrianized, affluent individuals in high positions. (p. Cool
http://www.jaas.org/edocs/v18n2/Parpola-identity_Article%20-Final.pdf
Dimsjo
10-04-2008, 09:00 PM
Please tell me then, which are the ancestors of modern Israeli Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc.)?

Mizrahim's!
arabdna
10-04-2008, 09:41 PM
So, because I consider Muhammad to be a false prophet, you automatically interpret that as hate of Arabs? What kind of logic is that?Please tell me then, which are the ancestors of modern Israeli Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, Mizrahim, etc

I will teach you some logic if you like or respect somebody you dont go and insult their father or their religious figures , because of islam you still keep your religion , see what happened to muslim in spain , or in Bosnia and Herzegovina .

for the now a days jewish check this : jewish dna project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject&fixed_columns=on

check your ancestor mizrahi you could be red indian .........shaloom
Trueshot
10-04-2008, 09:44 PM
I will teach you some logic if you like or respect somebody you dont go and insult their father or their religious figures , because of islam you still keep your religion , see what happened to muslim in spain , or in Bosnia and Herzegovina .

for the now a days jewish check this : jewish dna project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject&fixed_columns=on

check your ancestor mizrahi you could be red indian .........shaloom

He may be speaking of the original Israeli Jews before the modern day Israel, and they do have some links to the ancient Israelites.
EliasAlucard
10-04-2008, 09:59 PM
I will teach you some logic if you like or respect somebody you dont go and insult their father or their religious figuresI don't consider Muhammad to be a prophet. Is that a problem, sir?because of islam you still keep your religion , see what happened to muslim in spain , or in Bosnia and HerzegovinaI'm Assyrian-Armenian and we are more or less 99% Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people

Because of Islam, Assyrians are dying right now in Iraq as we speak. If you're trying to tell me that I somehow for some reason should be grateful towards Islam, you really picked the wrong guy.for the now a days jewish check this : jewish dna project

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishDNAProject&fixed_columns=on

check your ancestor mizrahi you could be red indian .........shaloomWhat's your point man, seriously?Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics -- the study of DNA sequences -- indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry.

Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East -- Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen -- and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.http://www.aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Jewish_Genes.asp
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:03 am

solomon
10-05-2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, I know that many Arabs have J1; it's BESIDE THE POINT. It just doesn't matter, you can't claim an Arab monopoly on a haplotype. It just doesn't work that way. The J haplogroup is older than the Arabic language and haplogroups don't follow linguistic patterns.Modern Israeli Jews are definitely descendants of the ancient Israelites. Read this study:

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/346genetics.html

only 20 percent are j1 of the ashkennazis. most israelis are genetically are not ancient israelites. they are jews, which is a religion.
EliasAlucard
10-05-2008, 03:00 PM
only 20 percent are j1 of the ashkennazis. most israelis are genetically are not ancient israelites. they are jews, which is a religion.J1 isn't a mandatory requirement to be Jewish and a descendant of ancient Israelites. You are seriously overstating the importance of J1.

Ashkenazim are ethnically Jewish. And how the hell do you know anyway that the ancient Israelites had 110% J1? J1 has probably never been that strong in the Levant anyway.

What the hell man, you think the Middle East only has one Y-DNA haplogroup all in all? Ever heard of Y-DNA F?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA)

Why is it EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand that these haplogroups are older than modern ethnic groups and that they do not in any way solely belong to a certain linguistic group or linguistic family, and that haplogroups do not follow patterns associated with linguistic genealogy?

J1 is common in the Arabian peninsula, so what? It still doesn't mean that it's an Arab marker, it just means that the early ancestors carrying Y-DNA J settled there a long time ago. Georgians with Y-DNA J are more closely related with other Georgians with Y-DNA G and R1b than they are with Arabs because Georgians with different haplogroups have been breeding with each other for centuries.

Try to understand, these haplogroups are much older than most extant languages today and they cannot strictly be the genetic property of any ethnic group or language.

If haplogroups would follow linguistic patterns, you'd have to have the idea that haplogroups, haplotypes and subclades strongly correlate with linguistic genealogy; in reality, they simply don't.

It would have to be something like this:

Y-DNA J = Afro-Asiatic

Y-DNA J1 = Semitic
Y-DNA J1a = Amorite
Y-DNA J1b = Arabic
Y-DNA J1b1 = Mehri Arabaic
Y-DNA J1b2 = Maltese Arabic
Y-DNA J1b3 = Egyptian Arabic
Y-DNA J1b4 = Lebanese Arabic
Y-DNA J1c = Aramaic
Y-DNA J1c1 = Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
Y-DNA J1c2 = Judeo-Aramaic
Y-DNA J1d = Akkadian
Y-DNA J1d1 = Babylonian Akkadian
Y-DNA J1d2 = Assyrian Akkadian
Y-DNA J1e = Amharic
Y-DNA J1f = Hebrew
Y-DNA J1g = Phoenician
Y-DNA J1h = Tigrinya

Y-DNA J2 = Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a = Old Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a1 = Middle Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a2 = Coptic

Y-DNA J3 = Berber

And so on... Sorry man, but haplogroups just don't work that way. Just because some Afghan dude has J1 it doesn't necessarily mean that he's a descendant of ancient Israelites, likewise, in the case of Ashkenazim, they are not required to be 100% J1 in order to be descendants of the ancient Israelites. And you are very wrong about the Ashkenazi Jews; they are most definitely a Middle Eastern people and their gene pool clusters in the Middle Eastern gene pool.
solomon
10-05-2008, 03:16 PM
J1 isn't a mandatory requirement to be Jewish and a descendant of ancient Israelites. You are seriously overstating the importance of J1.

Ashkenazim are ethnically Jewish. And how the hell do you know anyway that the ancient Israelites had 110% J1? J1 has probably never been that strong in the Levant anyway.

What the hell man, you think the Middle East only has one Y-DNA haplogroup all in all? Ever heard of Y-DNA F?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA)

Why is it EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE for you to understand that these haplogroups are older than modern ethnic groups and that they do not in any way solely belong to a certain linguistic group or linguistic family, and that haplogroups do not follow patterns associated with linguistic genealogy?

J1 is common in the Arabian peninsula, so what? It still doesn't mean that it's an Arab marker, it just means that the early ancestors carrying Y-DNA J settled there a long time ago. Georgians with Y-DNA J are more closely related with other Georgians with Y-DNA G and R1b than they are with Arabs because Georgians with different haplogroups have been breeding with each other for centuries.

Try to understand, these haplogroups are much older than most extant languages today and they cannot strictly be the genetic property of any ethnic group or language.

If haplogroups would follow linguistic patterns, you'd have to have the idea that haplogroups, haplotypes and subclades strongly correlate with linguistic genealogy; in reality, they simply don't.

It would have to be something like this:

Y-DNA J = Afro-Asiatic

Y-DNA J1 = Semitic
Y-DNA J1a = Amorite
Y-DNA J1b = Arabic
Y-DNA J1b1 = Mehri Arabaic
Y-DNA J1b2 = Maltese Arabic
Y-DNA J1b3 = Egyptian Arabic
Y-DNA J1b4 = Lebanese Arabic
Y-DNA J1c = Aramaic
Y-DNA J1c1 = Assyrian Neo-Aramaic
Y-DNA J1c2 = Judeo-Aramaic
Y-DNA J1d = Akkadian
Y-DNA J1d1 = Babylonian Akkadian
Y-DNA J1d2 = Assyrian Akkadian
Y-DNA J1e = Amharic
Y-DNA J1f = Hebrew
Y-DNA J1g = Phoenician
Y-DNA J1h = Tigrinya

Y-DNA J2 = Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a = Old Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a1 = Middle Egyptian
Y-DNA J2a2 = Coptic

Y-DNA J3 = Berber

And so on... Sorry man, but haplogroups just don't work that way. Just because some Afghan dude has J1 it doesn't necessarily mean that he's a descendant of ancient Israelites, likewise, in the case of Ashkenazim, they are not required to be 100% J1 in order to be descendants of the ancient Israelites. And you are very wrong about the Ashkenazi Jews; they are most definitely a Middle Eastern people and their gene pool clusters in the Middle Eastern gene pool.

i dont know but if you check famlytreedna. or the j1project of ftdna you will see that there are certain mutations within J1 who are clearly ancient israelite/adnanite arab. if you think you know it better than the scientists ist your choice.
prmix
10-05-2008, 03:18 PM
i dont know but if you check famlytreedna. or the j1project of ftdna you will see that there are certain mutations within J1 who are clearly ancient israelite/adnanite arab. if you think you know it better than the scientists ist your choice.J1 is also know as the "Aaron haplotype"
EliasAlucard
10-05-2008, 03:28 PM
i dont know but if you check famlytreedna. or the j1project of ftdna you will see that there are certain mutations within J1 who are clearly ancient israelite/adnanite arab. if you think you know it better than the scientists ist your choice.FamilyTreeDNA isn't omniscient; it's a commercial haplogroup test site. You can't base your conclusions on FamilyTreeDNA. If you want to base your genetic conclusions on what's what, stick to population geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza, Neil Risch, and similar scientists.

And if you want to understand the gene pool of modern Ashkenazi Jews and how they're genetically related with other ethnic "biological" Jews (and Ashkenazim being descendants of the ancient Israelites), I recommend this book:

A People That Shall Dwell Alone: Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFr2ffNYt_MC&dq=isbn:0595228380J1 is also know as the "Aaron haplotype"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

Yeah, I've been saying that for a while (solomon just isn't listening). But Aaron is more like a subset of J1. This might also be of interest:

Tracing the Cohanim: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familycohanim.html
solomon
10-05-2008, 04:13 PM
FamilyTreeDNA isn't omniscient; it's a commercial haplogroup test site. You can't base your conclusions on FamilyTreeDNA. If you want to base your genetic conclusions on what's what, stick to population geneticists like Cavalli-Sforza, Neil Risch, and similar scientists.

And if you want to understand the gene pool of modern Ashkenazi Jews and how they're genetically related with other ethnic "biological" Jews (and Ashkenazim being descendants of the ancient Israelites), I recommend this book:

A People That Shall Dwell Alone: Judaism as a Group Evolutionary Strategy: http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFr2ffNYt_MC&dq=isbn:0595228380http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

Yeah, I've been saying that for a while (solomon just isn't listening). But Aaron is more like a subset of J1. This might also be of interest:

Tracing the Cohanim: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familycohanim.html


hey...391=10 and 388=16 is clearly an ancient israelite/adnanite mutation. you can believe it or not its your problem
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:04 am

Quilon
10-05-2008, 04:48 PM
hey...391=10 and 388=16 is clearly an ancient israelite/adnanite mutation. you can believe it or not its your problem

Whatever the truth maybe, we can't prove something like this yet. But I Tend to feel that, all J1 mutations seem much more older than both historic israelite, jews or arabs. But for now, all we can do now is just wait for more advance research-work in the future.
EliasAlucard
10-05-2008, 05:08 PM
hey...391=10 and 388=16 is clearly an ancient israelite/adnanite mutation.And how do you know this for sure?you can believe it or not its your problemIt's not that I doubt what you're saying. It's your conclusions I disagree with. Try to understand that these haplogroups are older than the entire Afro-Asiatic language family, and while you're at it, Google language replacement and gene replacement.
Quilon
10-05-2008, 05:37 PM
Not that I doubt what you're saying or anything, but I'd like to know on which genetic studies you base your opinion on regarding Indians?
Well see how far away the genetic distance is between Native Australians and South Indians(Dravidians). Calling them both Australoids wouldn’t be really serving either group of peoples. Researchers like Lynn B. Jorde and Stephen P. Wooding both point to the fact that South Indians are genetical intermediaries between Caucasians and East Asians(meaning they aren't perfectly Caucasians or East Asians, but in the middle).

http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v36/n11s/full/ng1435.html


http://tinypic.com/e8u80z.gif


Now South Indians(Dravidians) as a whole have regional diversity, because South-West Indians tend to share some similarities with some north-indians, while South-East Indians have kept themselves isolated a-bit. But the more you check-out older and (dare I say)more purer South-East Indians(eastern telugu, Indian tamils), some central and south indian ethnic tribes. The more perfect intermediaries between Caucasians and East Asians they can get.

But it can easily argued that many unique haplogroups distribution are only native to south-asia mostly. One example is the South Asian clades of MtDNA M which are mostly different from other haplogroup M outside India(and there are many other similar examples). So nobody can argue that South Indians(Dravidians) are just a racial mix between European/middle-easterns vs East-Asian/native-american. Plus anybody with common-sense can figure-out that no mixed Hapas or Mestizo can ever produce stereotypical south-indian, also Indian tribals tend to be much older than many Caucasians, North-Asians and Native American populations.

Also, in your opinion, do you believe there exists a Caucasoid gene pool in Indians?
I believe there exist a West-eurasian, East-eurasian and also an unique South-asian influence all inside India. The strongest amount of West-Eurasian influence is inside North-west-indian groups, but even they have some additional ancient South-asian gene-flows too.

Though I feel this is an old imperfect genetical map, it still can give a good idea of different south-asian specific mtDNA pools:

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2156-5-26-11-l.jpg

I don't think that article seriously stated that Indians are Europeans; it's just saying that Europeans influenced India genetically for some time and to some extent. You know, as in European gene flow?
Well there isn't any ancient European gene flow into India. Bamshad (2001) study cited in that article is an early misinformed piece of work done on Indian caste populations. Genetic geneology was still in its infancy when that study came up. It was Spencer Wells biggest blunder in assuming that R1a is solely associated with Europeans only. Well R1a seem to be older and more spread-out in india than once thought, and it has nothing to do with any european gene flow.

Also besides R1a, India has many Y-halpogroups(like J2, G*, ect)and Mtdna halpotypes (like U7, U9, pre-HV and others) that can never be linked as european in orgin, also european tend to lack some of these in themselves. It’s almost as if many choose to forget all this additional information, and just focused on one main halpogroup(R1a) as being European influenced. Well this West-eurasian influence in India seem to coming in from ancient middle-east direction only(not europe).

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2156-5-26-3-l.jpg

*Both Westeurasian Mtdna U7 and W have a trail connecting middle-east to south-asia. While R5 and R6 are mainly south-asian specific, but R2 seem native to both central-asia and south-india.

I'm just checking if I got you right: you do consider the Irano-Afghan subrace (as it is called in physical anthropology) to be genetically Caucasoid, right?

Well maybe I shouldn't have brought up the whole subrace thing of physical anthropology. Yet I was implying that Irano-Afghan and Gracil-indid phenotypes evolved to meet environmental conditions of the north-west regions of south-asia. No European population could have just brought these phenotypes into India. One type came about from mountainous rugged conditions, while the other faced the arid dry climate of the Thar. As such we can say that these features took a long period of time to form, and are also the indigenous to North-western Indian peoples.

But these phenotypes have spread outside north-west today, for ex: Gracil-indid look can be found all way down to south-india, or Irano-Afghans in central-asia. But thats getting alittle of topic.
solomon
10-05-2008, 06:41 PM
And how do you know this for sure?It's not that I doubt what you're saying. It's your conclusions I disagree with. Try to understand that these haplogroups are older than the entire Afro-Asiatic language family, and while you're at it, Google language replacement and gene replacement.

man... iam not talking about haplogroups. i am talking about mutations. and 391=10 and 388=16 are recent mutations which only (mostly)adnanite/arabs and J1-jews have. no other people have these mutations, and if they have, it means they have arab/adnanite or jewish/ancient israelite descent. ...you understand ! these are not mine conclusions but conclusions which were made by people who know much better than me.
dark_man
10-05-2008, 07:04 PM
But these phenotypes have spread outside north-west today, for ex: Gracil-indid look can be found all way down to south-india, or Irano-Afghans in central-asia. But thats getting alittle of topic.

i might not be understanding you right but you don't seriously think irano afghans come from india! gracil indid might be from india but irano afghans are hardly found in india only a little in the kashmir area which is not repersentative of india as a whole.
Quilon
10-07-2008, 07:27 PM
The gap is not super huge, but it is quite big considering the geographic distance between Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
One thing to keep in mind is that a very large majority of Jordanian are really of Palestinian origin. Also some refugees coming from Lebanon and Iraq also just paints towards a diverse Arab population inside Jordan.

Saudi Arabian populations were isolated for most part, but there has to be a large numbers of Jordanian Bedouins who still have some close links to ancient Saudi Arabians. And these same Jordanian nomads would themselves have shared some similarities with their native Jordanian agrarian neighbors, because both populations lived side by side for a very long-time.

Sure, Arabs did mix, but it obviously wasn't enough to influence the genetic distance with the rest of the Middle East. Also, what's interesting, is that the Druze people (according to Dienekes) seem to have around 50% European genes, and around 20% Central South Asian genes (all Caucasoid gene pools). Bedouins also have European genes, but it's a lot less than Druze. This affects the genetic distance between the Near East and the Arabian peninsula.
There is some uniqueness to Arabians, but them being extremely distance from northern middle-eastern populations I don’t completely buy. And many people choose to forget that Arabians themselves aren’t unified. Even though I feel the main difference is mainly between northern and southern Arabians, there would also be other regional ones too(like the Persian-gulf, Central Arabs and Extreme North-West).

It wouldn’t be difficult to imagine that the Persian-gulf Arabs would some having connections towards southern Iraqi and southern Iranians groups(and also viceversa )

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/8608/clipboard03ao0.jpg

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/7946/structuresciencefy4.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=structuresciencefy4.jpg)http://img224.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Source:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/02/huge-paper-on-human-genetic.html
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/06/admixture-estimate-vs-population-of.html
Just keep in mind that both the main major Y-haplogroups of Western Europe, R1b and I seem to be older and more diverse in middle-east and not Europe. Plus some middle-east R1b and I clade variations are unique/native to the near-east region only. So instead of thinking of Bedouins & Druze of having some ancient European historical mix, we can say the exact opposite. Europeans just preserved one variation which was common to middle-easterns, because Europeans came from Middle-eastern populations(not the other way around).

Druze 24, Danes 23, Yemenites 22. Apparently, Druze are closer to Danes than they are to Yemenites. Doesn't that tell you something?
Simple thing about the Yemenis is that they are seen as the outliers of the Middle-East. And even among the Arabians, the Yemenis are at the opposite ends of the spectrum(even culturally they are different from mainstream Arabians). The African heritage(both recent and older) is also the strongest in certain-parts of Yemen comparing to many other parts Arabia even. So comparing the Yemenites with others wouldn’t be telling you much about other arabs.

The distance between Druze and Yemenites Jews (YeJ) is quite big considering that they're fairly close geographically.
Well both Levant and Yemen aren’t very close geographically. And even with the Yemenite Jewish people having some Israelite background. They would also have had local Yemeni converts. Most would have been of humble backgrounds, while there was still this one very famous Jewish convert in the history of Yemen, “Yusuf Dhu Nuwas.” Plus add to fact that few Ethiopian Jews would have also found shelter among the Yemenite Jewish communities, in-turn making the Yemenite Jews different from average Levantines.

The same could also be said for the Druze, for their women seem to have most likely preserved a very ancient background. While the Druze Men seem to have some similarities towards eastern populations(like the Persians), all of this would mean that Druze are quite different from their close neighbors. And if you compare two groups like Druze and Yemenites Jews, both have quite unique history and backgrounds, you will be bound to find some differences.

Do you have some more genetic information about the Mehri people?
Even though I read something along this line a-while ago. I don’t have any info on me now, but will on look-out to post if I find it.

It doesn't necessarily have to be an invasion we're talking about here. For example:

[indent]Two representatives of the Uralic family appear in the tree, Samoyeds (living East of the Urals) plus neighboring populations, and Saame (usually called Lapps) who live in northern Scandinavia. The first are genetically Mongoloids, and the second Caucasoids. Further genetic analysis, however (Guglielmino-Matessi et al. 1991; see also chap. 5) showed Lapps are a mixture of Caucasoids and people of Uralic origin who are Mongoloid. The contribution of the latter is less important and Lapps therefore associate in the genetic tree with Caucasoids. The Simplest explanation is that gene flow going on for a millennia from their neighbors of Caucasoid origin (see sec. 1.17 and chap. 5), has caused enough gene replacement in Lapps to produce their now predominantly European-looking gene pool without language replacement.
— Cavalli-Sforza et al.,
But even in here there are disagreements, because though some don’t believe in a language replacement. Yet the Actual support for an Eastern origin of Uralic language is stronger, meaning many believing in a minor gene impact with a stronger language influence to Scandinavia.

Me personally I don’t know which one is more correct, but I Eastern origin of Uralic language is possible.

Yeah, the farther back in time, the more controversy about the origins of PIE (proto-Indo-European) and PAA (proto-Afro-Asiatic).
It’s not just the same for Indo-European and Afro-Asiatic languages, but also for almost all language family groups, and it wouldn’t be solved anytime soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:06 am

Quilon
10-07-2008, 09:03 PM
read up about the out of africa theory....
So to believe in an "out of africa theory." I have to also automatically believe that northern-middle-east got an early migration that survived the desert migration and harsh conditions of near-east. And this separate-line became modern middle-east.

Well science is only pointing to only one-single-line of migration to Eurasians. Plus it looks Caucasians went threw a founder-effect. This and the lack of diversity in middle-east just points to migration from the east into middle-east. Before this middle-east, north-africa and europe were only home for the Neanderthals, until the weather got warmer and wetter.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/bigphotos/images/080221-human-genetics_big.jpg
http://www.progonos.com/furuti/MapProj/Normal/ProjAppl/Img/ooa.png
http://www.raritanval.edu/departments/Science/images/genedispersalmap.jpg
The first Map is just another outdated version of the earlier National Geographic map. They are hinting that R1a and R1b originated in northern Russia, yeah right. And they are also pointing towards an iberian refugee for R1b, that's another outdated idea too. Then Haplogroup F, which preserved itself better in India and East-asia, and was found extremely high in frequency in upper paleolithic east-indians(and still is among many of these ancient survivors). So it history is more older in east and not in West-asia.

This simple map below is more closer to what is genetic research is pointing towards.

http://humphreygenealogy.com/Haplogroup.WorldMap.JPG

alright we can talk about genes if you want.
Its not that I only want to take about genes. only that I don't believe in a physical Caucasoid. Just like a New-Guianans isn't an african person, but a typical eurasian. If there isn't a deep shared relationship, then it doesn't matter what you look like to me. Plus Physical feature can be very plastic, things like skin-colour, hair, skull-shape and nose can all change quickly.

it is rather the opposite imo.. J1 and J2 was introduced through the mesapotamians in the north coming south, and becoming the majority, while the e3b became a minority through extensive intermixing..
e3b is found in middle-east right, if the original-Arabians had it, they could have been the people to pass down to present middle-easterns. So my point has nothing to do with northerns coming to south and becoming then becoming the majority.

i believe it was in mesapotamia because that is where abraham the father of the semite race arab and jew originated, assuming he was the original carrier of J1 and/or j2
Why is the argument for what you are stating religious? I am not here attacking religious belief, but why bring abraham into this, because J1 and J2 aren't even consider semite genes. Its spread out way to much for that.

And it was persia, the levant and mesapotamia..
As long as you don't believe that East-asians, Ancient East-indian and others came from northern middle-east I'm cool.

Now even I am not 100% certain when I spoke of persia as most likely. But I feel that Iran may be place and maybe mesopotamia as part of that same picture. but no way in levant thats for sure.

the J1 haplogroup origionated in the southern fertile crescent...and was the marker for the arab expansion in N. Africa.... b/c the arabs, were the largest carriers of the haplogroup..
Who knows if it originated in southern fertile crescent in the first place, it could have been in north, or anywhere else in nearby northern middle-east.

And J1 marker is not only for the arab expansion into N. Africa, but J1 is also a berber maker that is native for north-africans. Arabization is what toke place in north-africa, and it was mainly cultural. North-africans have large percentage of J1, and people who are responsible for the vast majority of it are not arabs, but the native-berbers of north-africa.
Ethioboy
10-07-2008, 09:32 PM
So to believe in an "out of africa theory." I have to also automatically believe that northern-middle-east got an early migration that survived the desert migration and harsh conditions of near-east. And this separate-line became modern middle-east.

Well science is only pointing to only one-single-line of migration to Eurasians. Plus it looks Caucasians went threw a founder-effect. This and the lack of diversity in middle-east just points to migration from the east into middle-east. Before this middle-east, north-africa and europe were only home for the Neanderthals, until the weather got warmer and wetter.
listen man I dont make these things up.. its a well accepted theory no?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Migration_map4.png

that map is according to the mtdna...

I have honestly never heard of this new theory where the europeans came from a back migration from india? its not called out of africa for nothing..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans


The first Map is just another outdated version of the earlier National Geographic map. They are hinting that R1a and R1b originated in northern Russia, yeah right. And they are also pointing towards an iberian refugee for R1b, that's another outdated idea too. Then Haplogroup F, which preserved itself better in India and East-asia, and was found extremely high in frequency in upper paleolithic east-indians(and still is among many of these ancient survivors). So it history is more older in east and not in West-asia.

This simple map below is more closer to what is genetic research is pointing towards.

http://humphreygenealogy.com/Haplogroup.WorldMap.JPG
its virtually the same and it was talking about migratory route patterns not where the specific haplogroups branched off... the one I gave you above is the mtdna... they are the general migratory routes..


Its not that I only want to take about genes. only that I don't believe in a physical Caucasoid. Just like a New-Guianans isn't an african person, but a typical eurasian. If there isn't a deep shared relationship, then it doesn't matter what you look like to me. Plus Physical feature can be very plastic, things like skin-colour, hair, skull-shape and nose can all change quickly.
very true


e3b is found in middle-east right, if the original-Arabians had it, they could have been the people to pass down to present middle-easterns. So my point has nothing to do with northerns coming to south and becoming then becoming the majority.
e3b originated in the horn... not arabia.. but then the carriers went into the horn.. so yes.. you are in effect right.. but there was also some comming from the other migrations from africa and the slave populations in arabia later on..


Why is the argument for what you are stating religious? I am not here attacking religious belief, but why bring abraham into this, because J1 and J2 aren't even consider semite genes. Its spread out way to much for that.
Im not starting a religious argument.. ever heard of the y chromosomal aaron?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

similarly there was a pastoral nomad in the southern fertile crescent that was the origional bearer of the new J1 mutation.. and what do you mean J1 and J2 arent semitic? are you kidding me? who are the people with the most concentrations of J1? Arabs.. arabians, and Middle easterns... its the most common haplogroup among the Middle eastern people groups...


As long as you don't believe that East-asians, Ancient East-indian and others came from northern middle-east I'm cool.
they passed through there on their migration.

Now even I am not 100% certain when I spoke of persia as most likely. But I feel that Iran may be place and maybe mesopotamia as part of that same picture. but no way in levant thats for sure.
this map may help you understand better Wink

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).jpg


Who knows if it originated in southern fertile crescent in the first place, it could have been in north, or anywhere else in nearby northern middle-east.
it did..

And J1 marker is not only for the arab expansion into N. Africa, but J1 is also a berber maker that is native for north-africans. Arabization is what toke place in north-africa, and it was mainly cultural. North-africans have large percentage of J1, and people who are responsible for the vast majority of it are not arabs, but the native-berbers of north-africa.

It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 30.1%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004).

it was the marker for arab expansion.. the native haplogroup is e3b.
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:06 am

Jibran
10-07-2008, 10:05 PM
So what i can gather here is, Arabs of the Gulf states (Yemen and Qatar too) have a negroid presence in their DNA make-up, and the levant Arabs are close to central asians/Turks + more Caucasoid admixtures?
Quilon
10-08-2008, 01:11 AM
listen man I dont make these things up.. its a well accepted theory no?
I never said that you made it up. But Many theories/ideas in genetic genealogy are accepted and can't be thrown out now(becoming scientific facts). But rest of our general understanding will still keep on changing. The picture your painting of middle-eastern migration is some-what slowly on its way out.

But even what I am saying could be given up in the future also(if better evidence points otherwise). So not everything is given the Permanent green-light yet.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dd/Migration_map4.png

that map is according to the mtdna...

Many Maps out there are always good for the generalized picture, and not the real complex picture that might have toke place. So I can look at the map and say I see where they are going with it. But It doesn't mean I have take as the gospel/dogma or some-thing.

Anyways both N* and M* didn't need to take two different paths, just the southern coast was enough to travel into Australia, asia and yes later push into west-asia also. The lack of M* is always going to be the problem for a north-middle-eastern migration. And even with N* influence firmly inside Near-east/Europe, its mainly her later descendant Haplogroup R* who dominates the region(meaning she colonized majority of it). The same could be argued for Y-haplotypes C* and D*, why is it that all this variation is found eastwards, and never westwards(surly there's just as much room for in europe as in asia).

I have honestly never heard of this new theory where the europeans came from a back migration from india? its not called out of africa for nothing..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_African_origin_of_modern_humans
Nobody is attacking "out of africa." And These ideas are not new, its just that many Europeans were/are still not comfortable with it(Coming from than Africans was one sacrifice, but having to go though the same pattern with Asians too is just more blow to the Ego). Anyways a back migration from India or even Central-asia it doesn't matter, but its still was eastward asian migration I agree with, it makes a whole of sense for me at this point(but who knows about the future).


its virtually the same and it was talking about migratory route patterns not where the specific haplogroups branched off... the one I gave you above is the mtdna... they are the general migratory routes..

It still mostly the same, but main difference is middle-east Caucasians comes in from east towards west, at later time-period.


e3b originated in the horn... not arabia.. but then the carriers went into the horn.. so yes.. you are in effect right.. but there was also some comming from the other migrations from africa and the slave populations in arabia later on..

Finally we agree some-what on this theory, but I never stated all this as complete fact(just to let you know). Still I feel Red Sea and southern Arabian population could be very similar peoples. Ofcourse after the coming of Caucasians from north things begun to change. But from either one of these people(or both), E3b through founder-effects pushed into new areas.

Im not starting a religious argument.. ever heard of the y chromosomal aaron?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

similarly there was a pastoral nomad in the southern fertile crescent that was the origional bearer of the new J1 mutation.. and what do you mean J1 and J2 arent semitic? are you kidding me? who are the people with the most concentrations of J1? Arabs.. arabians, and Middle easterns... its the most common haplogroup among the Middle eastern people groups...

First Taking about the cohanim genealogy, and Abraham as the founder of J1 and J2 are two different things. And yes J1 and J2 aren't Semitic specific, and why should it be? its spread out very much widely for that. Even historically and also today there are non-Semitic speakers who can have one or the other in good number.

they passed through there on their migration.

None of the Asians did. The southern route is just fine by itself, because why walked through what was barren desert of those days. Even today people can't survive in many of these places without animals or technology.

this map may help you understand better Wink
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA).jpg

Sigh... you are like lost lamb, but don't despair I'll pray that you soon see the light. :cool:

it did..

Maybe, but we should always keeps ones mind open to any other possibilities(anywhere in the northern-neareast could happen).

It spread later to North Africa in historic times (as identified by the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22; Algerians 35.0%, Tunisians 30.1%), where it became something like a marker of the Arab expansion in the early medieval period (Semino et al. 2004).

it was the marker for arab expansion.. the native haplogroup is e3b.

I don't mind saying it again, I feel J1 marker is not only for the arab expansion into N. Africa, but J1 was also native among the berbers too. This map was put out during the early Bosch study(2001), and it still holds weight today. Why, because j1 is very important among the berber groups also. The Berber groups also show a similar east to west frequency as the Arabs does. Meaning a very good amount of J1 in north-african arabs can also be traced to original berbers. It can be argued that Arab expansion would have had an effect on today's north-african Arabs, yes. But would anyone go so far to claim that even berbers got majority of there j1 from arabs. I don't think so.

*Recent study of J1 as the Neolithic Pastoralists contribution from ancient berbers is still supported by researchers. (Arredi et al. 2004)

http://es.geocities.com/luis_aldamiz/Genetics/images/Arredi1.jpg
LCD
10-08-2008, 05:45 AM
By the way, I have read there are people who believe the ancestors of the Berbers came from Yemen, a long, long time ago. Does anyone know anythig about this?
solomon
10-08-2008, 09:27 AM
By the way, I have read there are people who believe the ancestors of the Berbers came from Yemen, a long, long time ago. Does anyone know anythig about this?

yes i heard that too.
Ethioboy
10-09-2008, 04:22 AM
I never said that you made it up. But Many theories/ideas in genetic genealogy are accepted and can't be thrown out now(becoming scientific facts). But rest of our general understanding will still keep on changing. The picture your painting of middle-eastern migration is some-what slowly on its way out.

But even what I am saying could be given up in the future also(if better evidence points otherwise). So not everything is given the Permanent green-light yet.
how can it be hard to understand, I still dont get how the out of africa theory doesnt make sense to you... horners, carying e3b and y haplogroups M1 and L3 left the horn and went into arabia.. there were two paths.. one went and populated india while the other went into the fertile crescent and developed the caucasian haplogroups.. first the meta haplogroup F then, there were branches.. R, J, G, K, and so on.. please watch this video... it is very explanatory on it.. this is part one of a 13 part series very interesting and tells you all about the out of africa theory while prooving it at the same time...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OV6A8oGtPc4&hl=it&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OV6A8oGtPc4&hl=it&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Many Maps out there are always good for the generalized picture, and not the real complex picture that might have toke place. So I can look at the map and say I see where they are going with it. But It doesn't mean I have take as the gospel/dogma or some-thing.
The video I posted will explain it more thouroughly.. you dont have to believe it as you are entitled to your opinion.. but it is the best backed up theory known yet...

Anyways both N* and M* didn't need to take two different paths, just the southern coast was enough to travel into Australia, asia and yes later push into west-asia also. The lack of M* is always going to be the problem for a north-middle-eastern migration. And even with N* influence firmly inside Near-east/Europe, its mainly her later descendant Haplogroup R* who dominates the region(meaning she colonized majority of it). The same could be argued for Y-haplotypes C* and D*, why is it that all this variation is found eastwards, and never westwards(surly there's just as much room for in europe as in asia).
well its based on the frequency found with in the population.. the frequency of M1 and the other sub M haplogroups are much much higher in SE asia, and india than in the middle east and europe. sure there will be back migrations and so M1 would be found in the other places, but it isnt to the extent to the amount in SE asia.. hence why it is logical to say they broke off..


Nobody is attacking "out of africa." And These ideas are not new, its just that many Europeans were/are still not comfortable with it(Coming from than Africans was one sacrifice, but having to go though the same pattern with Asians too is just more blow to the Ego). Anyways a back migration from India or even Central-asia it doesn't matter, but its still was eastward asian migration I agree with, it makes a whole of sense for me at this point(but who knows about the future).
eastern migration? I can agree if you say that the faction settled in the middle east (from africa).. southern mesopotamia/persia.. then went to europe.. then it makes sense as that is the most possible area for the caucasian gene pool to have arisin..




It still mostly the same, but main difference is middle-east Caucasians comes in from east towards west, at later time-period.
? how is this? Arabs came from North to south.. how can you say caucasoids came from india... no.. the cradle is in the Middle east.. if it wasnt then why does it seem that all of the caucasian and asian genes scattered from that point...

Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T. The occurrence of haplogroups J, R1b, and T among precolonial populations of Africa is highly correlated with the distribution of languages of the Afro-Asiatic phylum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA)


Finally we agree some-what on this theory, but I never stated all this as complete fact(just to let you know). Still I feel Red Sea and southern Arabian population could be very similar peoples. Ofcourse after the coming of Caucasians from north things begun to change. But from either one of these people(or both), E3b through founder-effects pushed into new areas.
agree..



First Taking about the cohanim genealogy, and Abraham as the founder of J1 and J2 are two different things. And yes J1 and J2 aren't Semitic specific, and why should it be? its spread out very much widely for that. Even historically and also today there are non-Semitic speakers who can have one or the other in good number.
in a sense you are right.. but there is a mutation within the J1 haplogroup which is arab specific and it has its highest frequency in the gulf arab states..... but other than that I guess I can say J1 and J2 are more of a Middle eastern haplogroup.. as they did originate in the fertile crescent.. and were mostly distributed in europe and the semitic speaking people of ethiopia and eritrea in the neolithic (there was a second migration that did carry the arab marker to them, and the J1 in the habesha semites which is around 33.3% not including J2.. which is 2.1%.. but half of the 33.3 percent of people that carry J1 in ethiopia carry the arab marker... as Ezana has just enlightened me on..)... so I guess I agree.. but it is definately a Middle eastern marker... not european..


None of the Asians did. The southern route is just fine by itself, because why walked through what was barren desert of those days. Even today people can't survive in many of these places without animals or technology.
well they did.. perhaps they migrated north as well as south.. but according to the y haplogroups they did.. or else we would be finding high frequencys of E3b in india.. and not in arabia... besides the horn is right next to arabia.. 10 miles apart via the red sea.. so its more logical they did it that way.. perhaps the climate was different then.. I believe we were just gettin out of the ice age... or I could be wrong.. but again according to the haplogroups thats what happened.



Sigh... you are like lost lamb, but don't despair I'll pray that you soon see the light. :cool:
that map showed the most likely regions where the haplogroups evolved what are you talking about..


Maybe, but we should always keeps ones mind open to any other possibilities(anywhere in the northern-neareast could happen).



I don't mind saying it again, I feel J1 marker is not only for the arab expansion into N. Africa, but J1 was also native among the berbers too. This map was put out during the early Bosch study(2001), and it still holds weight today. Why, because j1 is very important among the berber groups also. The Berber groups also show a similar east to west frequency as the Arabs does. Meaning a very good amount of J1 in north-african arabs can also be traced to original berbers. It can be argued that Arab expansion would have had an effect on today's north-african Arabs, yes. But would anyone go so far to claim that even berbers got majority of there j1 from arabs. I don't think so.
I went over this earlier in the post.. there was an arab specific marker...

*Recent study of J1 as the Neolithic Pastoralists contribution from ancient berbers is still supported by researchers. (Arredi et al. 2004)

http://es.geocities.com/luis_aldamiz/Genetics/images/Arredi1.jpg
no.. I still doubt it.. it spread from the middle east... my friend..
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PostSubject: Re: Origin of Arabs   Mon Nov 17, 2008 1:07 am

solomon
10-09-2008, 10:47 AM
how can it be hard to understand, I still dont get how the out of africa theory doesnt make sense to you... horners, carying e3b and y haplogroups M1 and L3 left the horn and went into arabia.. there were two paths.. one went and populated india while the other went into the fertile crescent and developed the caucasian haplogroups.. first the meta haplogroup F then, there were branches.. R, J, G, K, and so on.. please watch this video... it is very explanatory on it.. this is part one of a 13 part series very interesting and tells you all about the out of africa theory while prooving it at the same time...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OV6A8oGtPc4&hl=it&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OV6A8oGtPc4&hl=it&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


The video I posted will explain it more thouroughly.. you dont have to believe it as you are entitled to your opinion.. but it is the best backed up theory known yet...


well its based on the frequency found with in the population.. the frequency of M1 and the other sub M haplogroups are much much higher in SE asia, and india than in the middle east and europe. sure there will be back migrations and so M1 would be found in the other places, but it isnt to the extent to the amount in SE asia.. hence why it is logical to say they broke off..







eastern migration? I can agree if you say that the faction settled in the middle east (from africa).. southern mesopotamia/persia.. then went to europe.. then it makes sense as that is the most possible area for the caucasian gene pool to have arisin..





? how is this? Arabs came from North to south.. how can you say caucasoids came from india... no.. the cradle is in the Middle east.. if it wasnt then why does it seem that all of the caucasian and asian genes scattered from that point...

Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T. The occurrence of haplogroups J, R1b, and T among precolonial populations of Africa is highly correlated with the distribution of languages of the Afro-Asiatic phylum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F_(Y-DNA)



agree..




in a sense you are right.. but there is a mutation within the J1 haplogroup which is arab specific and it has its highest frequency in the gulf arab states..... but other than that I guess I can say J1 and J2 are more of a Middle eastern haplogroup.. as they did originate in the fertile crescent.. and were mostly distributed in europe and the semitic speaking people of ethiopia and eritrea in the neolithic (there was a second migration that did carry the arab marker to them, and the J1 in the habesha semites which is around 33.3% not including J2.. which is 2.1%.. but half of the 33.3 percent of people that carry J1 in ethiopia carry the arab marker... as Ezana has just enlightened me on..)... so I guess I agree.. but it is definately a Middle eastern marker... not european..



well they did.. perhaps they migrated north as well as south.. but according to the y haplogroups they did.. or else we would be finding high frequencys of E3b in india.. and not in arabia... besides the horn is right next to arabia.. 10 miles apart via the red sea.. so its more logical they did it that way.. perhaps the climate was different then.. I believe we were just gettin out of the ice age... or I could be wrong.. but again according to the haplogroups thats what happened.




that map showed the most likely regions where the haplogroups evolved what are you talking about..


Maybe, but we should always keeps ones mind open to any other possibilities(anywhere in the northern-neareast could happen).




I went over this earlier in the post.. there was an arab specific marker...


no.. I still doubt it.. it spread from the middle east... my friend..
sorry, you are wrong: M1 evolved outside the horn in india. M1 is a subclade of so called indian haplogroup M. M1 back´migrated then firstly to northwesternafrica along the mediterian coast thats why the oldes clade of M1, M1b, are found in northwesternafrica (Algeria, Marroco, canary islands, even among the basque in southern spain. From there M1b wandered to the Horn and Egypt where M1a evolved. (btw the highes concentarions of M1 are now to be found in Egypt.
solomon
10-09-2008, 10:51 AM
sorry, you are wrong: M1 evolved outside the horn in india. M1 is a subclade of so called indian haplogroup M. M1 back´migrated then firstly to northwesternafrica along the mediterian coast thats why the oldes clade of M1, M1b, are found in northwesternafrica (Algeria, Marroco, canary islands, even among the basque in southern spain. From there M1b wandered to the Horn and Egypt where M1a evolved. (btw the highes concentarions of M1 are now to be found in Egypt.

@ethioboy: one other thing: M1 is nearly absent in india and the middle east interstiingly. so it is exact what you say about M1 distributes in southeast india. there are more M1 in southern europe thoug than in india. also: M1 is a maternal haplogroup...dont get it twisted.
Ethioboy
10-09-2008, 11:35 AM
^ Haplogroup M1 is considered to have originated in Africa.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/discussion/hap_M1.htm
solomon
10-09-2008, 11:56 AM
^ Haplogroup M1 is considered to have originated in Africa.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/discussion/hap_M1.htm

yo man, what does this link proof ? it is just a list of sample who were tested with M1. whats wrong with you ? the macrohaplogroup M evolved in india...thats why it is called an indian haplogroup either. since M1 is subclade of M it derived out of M, meanin the M1 people have their origins in india. it is proven already that M1 evolved somewhere in western asia since the oldest clades of M1 occured in the middle east it is proven that M1 never evolved in africa. just google it man. tz tz
Ethioboy
10-09-2008, 07:58 PM
^ i was just jokin around with you lol.. M1 originated in asia.. and M1 specifically is found at high frequency's in N. Africa and Ethiopia...
solomon
10-09-2008, 08:20 PM
^ i was just jokin around with you lol.. M1 originated in asia.. and M1 specifically is found at high frequency's in N. Africa and Ethiopia...

???
Quilon
10-11-2008, 08:44 AM
how can it be hard to understand, I still dont get how the out of africa theory doesnt make sense to you...

I have no problem with moderns coming from "out of africa." just that I don't believe in any early surviving migrations into north-africa or northern middle-east(they would have all died out). And "out of africa" doesn't have to go hand in hand with believing in any early surviving northern middle-east migration.

horners, carying e3b and y haplogroups M1 and L3 left the horn and went into arabia..

The Modern east-african populations carrying Mtdna M1 and both Y-haplogroup e3b and T developed much later on.

there were two paths.. one went and populated india while the other went into the fertile crescent and developed the caucasian haplogroups..

I have my doubts about an unique path that colonized Libya, egypt, levant or Mesopotamia. So far it seems there was only one ancient path leading into South-asia. then a later migration going West from either South-asian or central-asia towards middle-east.

please watch this video... it is very explanatory on it.. this is part one of a 13 part series very interesting and tells you all about the out of africa theory while prooving it at the same time...

I have problems with many of Spencer Wells(& team) eariler ideas:

-E3b originated in middle-east
-R1a is seen as Aryan IE marker, and it originated in Russia
-R1b is Cro-Magnon marker, and it went though Ice-age refugium in Spain

Because I don't agree with any of the above statements from Spencer Wells, then it’s not hard for me to disagree when he says early people migrated towards rest of the world from northern middle-east. Or when they say that Y-haplogroup F originated and then first came into dominance first in the fertile-crescent(which most likely is not what happened).

The video I posted will explain it more thouroughly.. you dont have to believe it as you are entitled to your opinion.. but it is the best backed up theory known yet...

Thank you, yes we are all entitled to our opinions. It should be noted that our knowledge on the history of early-man have increased more, since the creation of that video. So there will be certain things that don't hold-up as it used to.

eastern migration?

Yes, once out of africa, the modern humans just migrated eastwards, passing over the whole of Levant, Mesopotamia and north & central parts Iran. They just had an eastern migration that then give rise to early populations inside south-asia, south-east asia and Australia.

Now mtdna halopgroup N was part of this early eastern migration also, I mean it’s found in good frequency among Australian aboriginal women. Even mtdna halopgroup R has a strong history inside India, and is the 2nd most common haplogroup in Indian women after halopgroup M.
Quilon
10-11-2008, 08:46 AM
Several lineages derived from Haplogroup F appear to have migrated into Africa from a homeland in Southwest Asia sometime during prehistory. Y-chromosome haplogroups associated with this hypothetical "Back to Africa" migration include J, R1b, and T. The occurrence of haplogroups J, R1b, and T among precolonial populations of Africa is highly correlated with the distribution of languages of the Afro-Asiatic phylum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F*_(Y-DNA)

If you check-out what wikipedia has to say, you will also find wiki itself leave questions of origin and rise to dominance quite open. And South-asia is actually mentioned as a candidate even in wiki. Meaning there are many people who know that south-asia could play an important role in all of this, and nobody's completely ignorant of ancient South-asia.

It seems the first place were Haplogroup F* had risen to dominance would have been in India, no-doubt. Central and south indian tribes of south-asia happen to be one of the oldest living Upper-Paleolithic survivors in Eurasia. Today they also tend to carry some of the highest frequency of F*.

how can you say caucasoids came from india... no.. the cradle is in the Middle east.. if it wasnt then why does it seem that all of the caucasian and asian genes scattered from that point...

Asians didn't scattered from northern Middle-east, I mean what real proof do you have they did? And ancestors of Caucasians came from the east also. Caucasoids didn't evolve inside india, but in middle-east, yet all of that took place much later after the early eastern settlers came into fertile-crescent.

perhaps the climate was different then.. I believe we were just gettin out of the ice age... or I could be wrong.. but again according to the haplogroups thats what happened..

Yes we were in an ice age, and do you know what the fertile-crescent looked like during the Ice-age? It left majority of northern middle-east as an extreme desert habitat, which is why it’s unlikely that human populated rest of Eurasia from this region(location) at all.

that map showed the most likely regions where the haplogroups evolved what are you talking about...

No I'm not talkin about anything important, that's just me actin dumb. But I still think you put alot of faith in some of these maps. In another few years, more set of maps will be printed out, with much more different interruptions. That's just the way it's going to be.

I went over this earlier in the post.. there was an arab specific marker...no.. I still doubt it.. it spread from the middle-east... my friend...

Even if there are some Arab specific markers in north-africa. The main point has always been(even if you still doubt it)that both j1 and J2 in north-africa are both native to berbers. E3b isn't the only native haplogroup to berbers, both j1 and j2 have been inside north-africa long before any Arabs set foot in its soil.

And by the way, where do you think berbers originated from? They have an ancient Neolithic origin in middle-east (Myles et al. 2005). The berbers have more similarities with middle-eastern populations than either Europeans or Africans, meaning berbers originated in near-east not sub-saharian Africa or europe.
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